05-05-2003 00:44									#31
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DD :
Socialist countries, as well as social-democrat countries aren't up to steal your money. They are up to redistirbute your money.

What's the big difference ? In the case of socialist/social-democrat countries, taxation is equivalent to paying for essential services (health, education, etc.) that you'll have to pay anyways in a private economy.
The only difference is that the price is lower than in a private economy, except when the system fails and becomes inefficient because of too slow bureaucracy.

	05-05-2003 00:44									#32
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quote: Show me one with low taxes.

'Low' is a relative term.

If we're going to use American-style economics as some sort of measuring stick, then I guess I'd be a relative commie pinko.

Aside from that, it's not stealing if the money comes back to you in health care & social programs.

	05-05-2003 00:51									#33
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I want to be a socialite. Can we work that into this thread?

Texan and socialite just don't go together . . . sorry.

	05-05-2003 00:52									#34
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These days, socialist is one of the worst labels to get attached to. No, not because of stigmas or anything, though I'd imagine there's some of that, too, but becaue everyone and their brother has a different definition of socialism. When some say socialism, they think of Scandinavia, others think of Soviet Union, and some even claim the current US system is socialistic. Parties from Marxist parties in African states to wishy-washy European third-wayite social democrat parties can call themselves and be called socialists.

So, what are we talking about when we're talking about socialism, here?

	05-05-2003 01:02									#35
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workers' control over means of production, and a redistribution of wealth for the benefit of all of society.

	05-05-2003 01:08									#36
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Che, one of these day, POW! To the moon.

	05-05-2003 01:09									#37
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Che, one of these day, POW! To the moon.

Heh.

	05-05-2003 01:11									#38
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Scandinavia has a higher living standard (healthiness, education etc.) than the USA, but the USA has a higher BNP per capita. So both views are correct depending on you point of view.

	05-05-2003 01:18									#39
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Yeah socialism is good.

There are problems though such as keeping financing the social state in order for it not to virtually collapse due to the aging population.

Solution: immigrants.

	05-05-2003 01:21									#40
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Socialism also tends to stifle growth. Takes many incentives away from private companies. But without growth = no social state. So there's a fine line to walk between keeping the social state since it is the most humane system ever envisioned (=better quality of life for as many people as possible, low crime etc) while at the same time keeping growth going.

Socialism is for smart people.

	05-05-2003 01:23									#41
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It's not a solution if an entire world is socialist. Unless those martians.....



Seriously, though, I don't see why socialism has to be connected with aging populations. Europe is no example since it's not socialist. It's just self-indulgent.

	05-05-2003 01:24									#42
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Europe has a large social state. Socialism = social democracy in Europe.


The more population ages the more strain goes to social pension and medical funds.

	05-05-2003 01:26									#43
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Who, I ask again, has the largest immigration?
Anyone up to answering yet?

No, not Scandanavia.
Not Russia.
Not France.
Not Che's underpants.

	05-05-2003 01:27									#44
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Who, I ask again, has the largest immigration? Anyone up to answering yet? No, not Scandanavia. Not Russia. Not France. Not Che's underpants.

America.

	05-05-2003 01:30									#45
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welfare state != socialism.

	05-05-2003 01:31									#46
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Exactly. And what government system does America have?

	05-05-2003 01:32									#47
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I've voted conservative in all elections in Sweden, but my party was only successful once (1991). On the other hand, the difference between the Moderat conservative party and the Social Democrats have become very minor over the years. Both parties have become more or less liberal, where the Moderats are right-wing liberals and the Social Democrats are left-wing liberals.

Comparing Sweden and USA in terms of living standards, I would say the average is about the same, but there are a higher percentage of both very rich and very poor people in US. All Swedes are more or less middle-class, with some exceptions.

	05-05-2003 01:32									#48
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Exactly. And what government system does America have?

According to you, it was a socialist government until 2000

	05-05-2003 01:32									#49
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quote: America.

Haiti has 1st generation IMMIGRANTS?

O_o

	05-05-2003 01:34									#50
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Happy Birthday, Tuomerehu.

Last edited by SlowwHand on 05-05-2003 at 01:40

	05-05-2003 01:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Exactly. And what government system does America have?

An oligarchy.

Next question.

	05-05-2003 01:37									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre I've voted conservative in all elections in Sweden, but my party was only successful once (1991).

You call the crisis 1991-1994 a success? We had a 500% interest on bank loans to cool down the inflating economy.

	05-05-2003 01:42									#53
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Socialism can only work in a society in which everyone is honest, hardworking and sincere. Basically, until people learn to treat others as their brothers and sisters, socialism will always spawn massive corruption and authoritarian government.

A socialist system is too advanced for us. Until we learn that cooperation is better than competition, we must rely on selfishness to keep otherwise slothful people hard at work.

	05-05-2003 01:53									#54
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The world will never, not ever, reach a point where all have a truly common goal system, and equally put forth effort.

	05-05-2003 01:57									#55
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand The world will never, not ever, reach a point where all have a truly common goal system, and equally put forth effort.

I believe it will, but not for a very, very, very long time. The human race has to evolve in many different ways before it can happen. In the meantime the best system available to us is capitalism.

	05-05-2003 02:00									#56
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It can't. People, being people, are different.

	05-05-2003 02:01									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Socialism can only work in a society in which everyone is honest, hardworking and sincere. Basically, until people learn to treat others as their brothers and sisters, socialism will always spawn massive corruption and authoritarian government. A socialist system is too advanced for us. Until we learn that cooperation is better than competition, we must rely on selfishness to keep otherwise slothful people hard at work.

Spoken by a man who lives in what has been and still largely is one of the world's most generous welfare states.

	05-05-2003 02:02									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia socialism will always spawn massive corruption and authoritarian government.

I take it you mean Muldoon. Hardly Kim Il Sung though, was he?

	05-05-2003 02:04									#59
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand It can't. People, being people, are different.

People will always be different, but being different doesn't mean it's impossible to be united.

In a way though, you are right. I guess what I'm talking about isn't really socialism.

	05-05-2003 02:04									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Spoken by a man who lives in what has been and still largely is one of the world's most generous welfare states.

I live in New York.