05-05-2003 22:20									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin THe HDI is not more accurate, it's just different.

If you are saying that GDP measures standard of living, and as Agathon has mentioned, it doesn't very well, then different means better

	05-05-2003 22:33									#122
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

When you or anyone else comes up with a universal and objective way to calculate the weights for the HDI then I'd agree. As it is now and will be for more or less the rest of mankinds existance, no it's not better. It's different.

	05-05-2003 22:42									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yes, I trust the HDI.

	06-05-2003 02:57									#124
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Odin Thats better then the crime resulting from poverty. Social Darwinists.

Hey, I'm a socialist myself...or at least a social liberal. The crack was just so good I couldn't resist

And no-one's mentioned GDP at purchasing power parity...

	06-05-2003 07:48									#125
	Inflate your Upload Space

GDP per capita is bad because a few mega-rich people at the top completely skews the picture. Using the median or even the mode gives a far better picture. But then, as it was pointed out, GDP itself is broken for a number of reasons.

	06-05-2003 08:08									#126
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Maniac So IMHO GDP per capita says near nothing unless you can show me a box-and-whiskers plot with mean, mediaan (in Eng.?), quartiles (Eng?), standard deviation...

Median with one a, and quartile you spelled correctly. I think. It's been a few years since I used any of those terms back in high school.

	06-05-2003 08:10									#127
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon GDP is bad because things like the Exxon Valdez disaster increase it.

Over the short term yes. Over the long term it slows its growth. Everything has to be paid for after all.

	06-05-2003 10:50									#128
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The biggest change you'd have to make is to actually start caring about other human beings, Dissident.

well **** you too. you don't even know me *******

what makes you think I don't care about other human beings. I once made a thread that said I love you guys. I do care about other human beings.

As of now I have what you call tough love. I go by the philosphy that you can give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish he can eat for a lifetime.

but unlike some people, I am open minded and am willing to change my philosphy to something better. I don't turn a blind eye to what the other side has to say. I listen to their ideas, and consider the value of them.

	06-05-2003 11:07									#129
	Increase the size of your Attachments

lets put it this way. add up the assets of the average american, and the average scandinavian and compare the two.

Americans have lots of money to by cd's, dvd's dvd player and many crappy items for their homes. We have so much junk in our homes in our country we are forced to rent space in storage places. Our homes are bigger than they have every been in history. No more 2 or 3 room homes for us. many people have 4 and 5 room 2 story homes.

I'm not saying this is a good thing, that's not how I definse standard of living. But I think most people would agree that personal wealth has to account for standard of living.

	07-05-2003 05:26									#130
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident well **** you too. you don't even know me *******

I can only go by your threads and posts, and sometimes you're way out there on the screw the helpless branch. Maybe you're being a devil's advocate or maybe you think you're being funny, but many of your posts and threads are mean-spirited. Often time you seem like the kind of person to push someone down a flight of steps and then laugh at them for being so clumsy.

	07-05-2003 05:55									#131
	Remove this text

Well I would never push someone down the stairs and laugh at them.

Now if they fell down the stairs by themselves...well

I can't help it. I just have a twisted sense of humour. But I do not consider myself an evil person. And I do wish for the success of most people. I want the best for the citizens of the country I live in. Well I want the best for the people of the world, but our goverment has limitations on how it can affect people in other countries.

I would never expect someone who cannot work to starve to death and say tough luck. But I do believe people who can work should do so. It is the healthy thing to do. There is a positive feeling working and providing food and shelter for yourself or familiy. So consequently I support disabled benefits and unemployment benefits, but I shun against most forms of welfare (except in extreme cases).

Last edited by Dis on 07-05-2003 at 06:00

	07-05-2003 07:07									#132
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Dissident lets put it this way. add up the assets of the average american, and the average scandinavian and compare the two. Americans have lots of money to by cd's, dvd's dvd player and many crappy items for their homes. We have so much junk in our homes in our country we are forced to rent space in storage places. Our homes are bigger than they have every been in history. No more 2 or 3 room homes for us. many people have 4 and 5 room 2 story homes. I'm not saying this is a good thing, that's not how I definse standard of living. But I think most people would agree that personal wealth has to account for standard of living.

I'm not so sure the Americans would come out ahead, if you factor in the average debt load. I'm not basing this on any facts necessarily, but you have to consider that the US is a very consumption-based and non-debt adverse society.

	07-05-2003 07:52									#133
	Increase Your PM Length

you may be right about the debt.

But look at it this way. Factor in what the average american take home after taxes and what the average Scandinavian takes home after taxes.

Actually you should figure out the gross income- as you have to include what their tax dollars are doing for them (health care etc)

	07-05-2003 10:06									#134
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm not saying this is a good thing, that's not how I definse standard of living. But I think most people would agree that personal wealth has to account for standard of living.

I am not sure getting lots of stuff increases standard of living. Up to a level, adding possessions does increase standard of living, but beyond that, probably won't do a thing. So what if you have 5 sets of stereo instead of 3?

Also, as I pointed out before, average doesn't work in a country such as the US where there's a huge gap between the top and the bottom. You just won't get a real picture. Use the median and the mode instead.

	07-05-2003 12:25									#135
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident you may be right about the debt. But look at it this way. Factor in what the average american take home after taxes and what the average Scandinavian takes home after taxes. Actually you should figure out the gross income- as you have to include what their tax dollars are doing for them (health care etc)

Money is a very poor method for determining standard of living. Moreover, using it as the standard betrays a very libertarian bias in your thinking. Not everyone measures their worthiness in cash on hand or salary.

I would prefer some kind of contentment measurement, but that's because I'd rather be happy than rich if I had to make the choice. If it turned out that Scandinavians oh the whole were much happier than Americans, I'd say they had a better standard of living.

	08-05-2003 23:24									#136
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I've read all these posts, and this is a fascinating forum. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Dissident, if you are feeling dissatisfied about yourself, doing something positive is the best course. Deciding to be a socialist in a place like the US is not going to help your mental wellbeing.

In other words, you'll go nuts very quickly.

	10-05-2003 11:33									#137
	Put an end to popups!

well I did not intend this thread to be that serious.

But the socialists here at Apolyton have been very agressive in their posts. And they are intelligent posters, and are so sure their way is right. I have to consider it.

If you know my posts, I'm actually considered a right-winger by most of the posters here. I consider my self independant and with no bias either way- but I may see myself differently than others.

I can't help but think universal medical care would be beneficial. I just can't see how it can work in the U.S. We'd have to sacrifice something. I do get concerned when I get older and cannot work. Does medicaid/medicare cover that stuff? I'm not sure- I have never paid attention to those programs.

And why should the poor be denied health care just because they lack the skills necessary to get a good job? the thing about people is, people are not created equal. Some people have the abilities to get good jobs with medical coverage, and some people lack the talent to get good jobs.

	10-05-2003 11:44									#138
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Like I said, you can either whinge venomously about how evil the world is (a typical "socialist" attitude).

Or you can do something positive to make the world better - raise charity cash, do voluntary work, teach skills, whatever.

You're either part of the problem or part of the solution. The choice is yours.

Socialism; "To each according to his need".

It's a nice end point - but the map hasn't been published yet.