05-05-2003 00:06									#1
	I want to be a socialist Remove this text

Honest. Posters here make me feel so guilty at being a libertarian (with regards to economic issues). It makes me feel so callous and unfeeling. I should feel compassion towards the poor and want to give away my hard earned money. Being a libertairan makes me a bad person in many people's eyes. I am only this way because it seems to be the most natural state. Survival of the fittest if you will.

But survival of the fittest doesn't apply fully to a complex society. As we depend on each other in many ways.

If I could see a way that socialism could actually work, I would be a socialist. But no one has come up with a plan that looks feasible to me.

So socialists, here is your chance to convert me. Give me a socialist goverment that can work and maintain the same standard of living in the U.S. and I will convert.

	05-05-2003 00:07									#2
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start tokin' and move to a commune.

	05-05-2003 00:09									#3
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I´d try to save your soul, but I have no idea how. I consider myself moderately left, but if that would be enough to make a good socialist, who knows?

Good luck anyway

	05-05-2003 00:10									#4
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Some successful socialist-type (not pure socialist) countries include Sweden and Israel, others I can't think of right off the top of my head.

	05-05-2003 00:12									#5
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socialism doesn't mean having the government take over everything (although that is one way), its just general egalitarianism...

	05-05-2003 00:12									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Give me a socialist goverment that can work and maintain the same standard of living in the U.S. and I will convert.

Look at Scandinavia.

	05-05-2003 00:15									#7
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I'm not so much a socialist as I am pissed off at where our government spends it funds. I bet if we spent an appropriate amount on Defense and revamped welfare programmes, we would have enough left over to nationalize healthcare for those who can't afford it without a drastic tax hike.

	05-05-2003 00:15									#8
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It's all about priorities.

	05-05-2003 00:16									#9
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Scandinavia does not have the same standard of living as the U.S.

	05-05-2003 00:17									#10
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The "socialists" on this forum are by and large arguing against the US system and market fundamentalism.

I suppose we can't see why a developed country can't organise decent health care or education for all its citizens. It isn't hard and it doesn't necessitate a slide towards Stalinism.

For example, Canada pays less per capita to provide all its citizens with excellent health care. The US pays more to provide services to a fraction of those. Sensible people realised long ago that socialised health care is simply more efficient at delivering good services to more people. The overheads for a private system are so great and inefficiency promoting that they eat up more money while providing essentially nothing apart from jobs for bean counters.

In reference to DinoDoc's comment. Look at the UN HDI and you'll see that these countries enjoy a higher standard of living than the US.

	05-05-2003 00:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Scandinavia does not have the same standard of living as the U.S.

But they pay all of those wonderful taxes that you'd have to support being a socialist.

	05-05-2003 00:21									#12
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quote: Scandinavia does not have the same standard of living as the U.S.

You're right. Theirs is better

	05-05-2003 00:21									#13
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Argh, Damn you orange.

fricking x-posts.

Last edited by Az on 05-05-2003 at 00:31

	05-05-2003 00:22									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Scandinavia does not have the same standard of living as the U.S.

Yes they do!

The scandinavian countries (socialized utillities and Helthcare) and Israel (the collective farms) are examples of a socialistic economy that works.

	05-05-2003 00:22									#15
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Snap! Freecoke! Jinx!

	05-05-2003 00:22									#16
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Norway, Sweden, Canada, Belgium and Australia all beat the US according to the index.

	05-05-2003 00:24									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Yes they do! The scandinavian countries (socialized utillities and Helthcare) and Israel (the collective farms) are examples of a socialistic economy that works.

EDIT: I cross-posted with Orange and Azazel.

	05-05-2003 00:26									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc But they pay all of those wonderful taxes that you'd have to support being a socialist.

The point of taxation is that sometimes we are all better off when we are forced to pay for something than when we have a voluntary scheme. Health care is the most glaring example of this.

	05-05-2003 00:27									#19
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Scandinavia has a better standard of living than the U.S.


Imagine if they had to actually have a large military as the U.S. does. Look at socialist nations with large militaries- North Korea is one good example.

	05-05-2003 00:28									#20
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North Korea isn't 'socialist' It's a dictatorship run in the name of Communism.

	05-05-2003 00:30									#21
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Socialism doesn't mean the State will steal your money. Socialism is a kind of economy that is different from capitalism in the meaning that stakeholders (capital-owners) do not have the economic power anymore. This power is held either by the state (à la USSR) or by the employees (à la Israeli Kibbutsim)

Sweden is a successful social-democratic country, i.e it shares the wealth among its citizens, but remains capitalist at heart. A socialist economy will very likely result in a more balanced sharing of wealth, but not with the same ways.

Basically, it is important to share wealth among the population for various reasons :

- Safety net. If you happen to have an accident in your life that makes you unable to make money, a libertarian economy will basically let you starve, or pay you the bare minimum not to starve. A "socialized" economy will help you get on your feet again.

- Efficiency. Most "socialized" economies have the State taking over activities the private sector would have a hard time to do satisfyingly. For example, state-held retirement plans have a near-inexistant chance to sink (unlike corporate ones) because they rely on a huge pool of 'clients', which limits the consequences of individual accidents. Besides, the aim of public welfare is not to earn money, even if they try to be balanced, which can lead public welfare to be less costly than private insurances.
On another issue, about public education : an efficient (I mean, well funded and reasonable) public education system can increase childrens' integration in the economy direly, and will generally raise the output of the economy, since educated workers are way more efficient than uneducated ones. You, as an individual, will profit from the general improement of the economy.
Private education, being costly, deprives many people of a good education, even if they could be bright enough to follow them. A public education is simply more efficient for everyone, even though short-term interests may veil it.

- Solidarity. Solidarity is not only altruistic. It can offer many interests to you. For instance, poverty is highly linked with criminality (even though it is not the only factor), so helping people out of their poverty will lower criminality, which will in the end be good for you.

	05-05-2003 00:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by orange North Korea isn't 'socialist' It's a dictatorship run in the name of Communism.

Sweden is a socialist democracy, NK is a socialist despotism

	05-05-2003 00:32									#23
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I love how DIssident is saying Scandinavia doesn't have the same standard of living. The people who live and have actually been to Scandinavia seem to think differently.

	05-05-2003 00:35									#24
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Diss,

Why not just become a Social Democrat (like the Swedes & [most of] us Canadians)?

You get to keep capitalism, but now you're allowed to have a conscience!

It's the best of both worlds.

	05-05-2003 00:37									#25
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The biggest change you'd have to make is to actually start caring about other human beings, Dissident.

	05-05-2003 00:39									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Socialism doesn't mean the State will steal your money.

Show me one with low taxes.

	05-05-2003 00:42									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Imagine if they had to actually have a large military as the U.S. does. Look at socialist nations with large militaries- North Korea is one good example.

methinks you mixed something up here. there´s a slight difference between socialism as it existed in the eastern block until 1989 and social democracy as we know it from skandinavia, france or germany.
concerning the real existing socialism (as we still know it from NK for example) I think even the commies here don´t want to live under a system like that.

	05-05-2003 00:42									#28
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Nicaragua had low taxes.

	05-05-2003 00:42									#29
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I want to be a socialite.
Can we work that into this thread?

	05-05-2003 00:42									#30
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oh, and Sweden is not socialist, It's a welfare state, btw.