05-05-2003 09:01									#91
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norway cheats, its basically a socialist saudi arabia.

	05-05-2003 09:06									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Willem In any argument there are the two extremes, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Maoism/Stalinism/Marxism are one extreme, the laissez faire approach of the US is the other.

The US is not laissez-faire. Look, it even has anti-trust laws, and the government does intervene to save companies at times.

	05-05-2003 09:07									#93
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yah honestly when the gov't can take up to half of ur money and ur economy is being accused of being lasseiz faire u wonder just how left the crowd has gotten.

	05-05-2003 09:13									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The US is not laissez-faire. Look, it even has anti-trust laws, and the government does intervene to save companies at times.

Of course, just like China is moving to the right and adopting free market principles, the US is moving left and adopting Socialist ones. That just proves my point, the answer lies somewhere in the middle. The US didn't always have those laws, they were enacted when society began to see the abuses that a totally capitalist system can create.

	05-05-2003 09:16									#95
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon yah honestly when the gov't can take up to half of ur money and ur economy is being accused of being lasseiz faire u wonder just how left the crowd has gotten.

No one in the US pays half their money in taxes. The highest tax bracket it 35%, and no one pays 35%, because all the brackets before that get applied too (you pay 15% of the first $10K, 25$ on the next, etc.--not actual numbers but the principle applies), plus there are deductions and examptions. Anyone who is paying out half their money in taxes needs to fire their accountant and get a new one (unless your sole income is an inheritence).

	05-05-2003 09:17									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Of course, just like China is moving to the right and adopting free market principles, the US is moving left and adopting Socialist ones.

Actually, the US is moving further right, and trying to deregulate. It looks as though the Dem's are gonna try and make universal health care a campaign issue, so we'll see.

	05-05-2003 09:22									#97
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ur forgetting state taxes. the highest federal rate is 35 and there are lotsa state places that can get up to 15. oh and dont forget sales tax, gas tax, cigarette tax. lotsa stuff hits u and it adds up.

	05-05-2003 09:44									#98
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It still doesn't add up. First off, state taxes are deductable. Sales tax is a small percentage of what's left (depending on your state). Most of my income, like most people's goes to things that are non-taxable, like rent or morgages (the interest on which is tax deductable), food (which almost no one taxes), and utilities (which are taxed, but at much lower rates).

On top of that, most people aren't in the 35% bracket, and again, even those that are don't pay 35%. I was in the 15% bracket last year, but my effective tax rate was about 8% because of deductions, exemptions, and the like. The year I was in the 24% tax braket my effective tax rate was only around 10%, becuase most of my income wasn't taxed at 24%.

Anyone who pays 50% or more of their income in taxes in the US needs to have their account murdered.

	05-05-2003 09:49									#99
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, the US is moving further right, and trying to deregulate. It looks as though the Dem's are gonna try and make universal health care a campaign issue, so we'll see.

Change never occurs in a straight line, there's always a certain amount of bouncing back and forth. If you compare the US today to what it was like in the 1800's, it's become downright socialist.

	05-05-2003 09:51									#100
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Depends on your definition of socialism.

	05-05-2003 10:02									#101
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Depends on your definition of socialism.

I said in comparison to then. I'm certainly not implying that the US is socialist by any means, but it's slowly moving in that direction. The Europeans are moving quicker, as is Canada, but the US will eventually end up somewhere in the middle of the spectrum since that will turn out to be the most efficient way of running a post-industrial society.

Pure socialism is an ideal that will probably never be attained, it will simply coexist alongside capitalism in some form. Each form has it's strengths and it's weaknesses, and with both working together we'll eventually end up with a pretty good system.

	05-05-2003 10:05									#102
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now ur just quibblin to try and play misdirection on ur original woefully inaccurate statement. the thot that the US is running a lasseiz faire economy is absurd. and ur trying to drag me into this meta-argument.

I'm not gna quibble over who gets how much deductions from where. its true that at the top end the % taxed flattens out due to money paid to accountants and trickier deductions et al.

	05-05-2003 10:20									#103
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quote: No!!! Scandinavian standard of living is higher!!!

Actually it isn't. Standard of Living means GDP per capita. The US is, I believe, 3rd behind Luxembourg and Switzerland, IIRC.

	05-05-2003 10:22									#104
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon now ur just quibblin to try and play misdirection on ur original woefully inaccurate statement. the thot that the US is running a lasseiz faire economy is absurd. and ur trying to drag me into this meta-argument.

In comparison to other countries, yes it is. But I'm also looking at it from a historical perspective. The US became an economic powerhouse by fully embracing the concepts of a laissez faire economy many years ago, much more so than any other nation. Over time that's changed obviously, but there's still that undercurrent running through it's system.

	05-05-2003 10:28									#105
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yes but we've long since abandoned that. we're more lasseiz faire than others, sure. but to say we're lasseiz faire is still absurd. I mean if the gov't takes 80% of ur money in country A and 75% in country B does that make B like the bastion of capitalism?

but yes otherwise I agree with u. we try to hold on to our freer markets stronger than others in europe.

	05-05-2003 10:50									#106
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon yes but we've long since abandoned that. we're more lasseiz faire than others, sure. but to say we're lasseiz faire is still absurd. I mean if the gov't takes 80% of ur money in country A and 75% in country B does that make B like the bastion of capitalism? but yes otherwise I agree with u. we try to hold on to our freer markets stronger than others in europe.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no pure capitalist society anymore, nor is there a pure socialism. Both extremes have adopted elements of the other and they're gradually going to meet somewhere in the middle. On paper China is still a socialist country, but that's no more true than saying the US has a purely laissez faire economy. Governments of the future will eventually be a combination of both.

	05-05-2003 11:36									#107
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ok well I guess that part observationally true, so it didn't seem important.

	05-05-2003 12:01									#108
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quote: Standard of Living means GDP per capita.

no it doesn't.

	05-05-2003 12:10									#109
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Yes it does . That is the economics definition, and economics was the first field to define the term 'standard of living', so their definition is the one that should be used.

	05-05-2003 12:13									#110
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OK, what ever, just as long as we all understand that 'standard of living' doesn't actually mean standard of living.

	05-05-2003 12:15									#111
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon norway cheats, its basically a socialist saudi arabia.

A Swedish minister (a Social Democrat) called Norway "the last Sovjet state" when he thought the camera was off, referring to the government-owned industry and the Norwegian politicians' eagerness to put their nose into everything. He got a lot of bashing in media after that, not because he was wrong but because he had the arrogance to say it.

	05-05-2003 12:19									#112
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon but yes otherwise I agree with u. we try to hold on to our freer markets stronger than others in europe.

So why did you introduce import duties on steel products?

	05-05-2003 12:44									#113
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Diss: The real question is why do you cling to the unrealistic dreams of libertarianism. There has never been a libertarian-style government and there never will be. It's just a pipe dream held by people who refuse to acknowledge the cold realities of the real world.

Socialism, on the other hand, is constantly evolving as it searches for ways to constantly improve the living standards of all members of society. Many socialists recognise that there are areas where the private sector should be left alone, sometimes because the private sector can do a better job and sometimes because the political cost of involving government in these areas is too high.

	05-05-2003 15:39									#114
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quote: Actually it isn't. Standard of Living means GDP per capita. The US is, I believe, 3rd behind Luxembourg and Switzerland, IIRC.

I don't know anything about economics, but isn't GDP per capita simply the country's total GDP divised by the population? If so, this is a very bad way of measuring poverty and standard of living. For example, to give a fictitious example, two countries could have the same GDP per capita, but in country A the top 1% of the population could have 15% of the country's GDP, while in country B they could only have 3%. So IMHO GDP per capita says near nothing unless you can show me a box-and-whiskers plot with mean, mediaan (in Eng.?), quartiles (Eng?), standard deviation...

	05-05-2003 16:58									#115
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THIS IS HOW STANDARD OF LIVING IS MEASURED

http://www.globastat.com/m10.htm

	05-05-2003 19:49									#116
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You can't measure the standard of living in the US. It is so economically diverse, it isn't funny. You can compare the different classes and their standards of living.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I wouldn't mind a 75% tax if my education and health care were free. As it stands now, my health care and education expenses are much more than 100% of my income. That's why I have huge student loans and health insurance. And I would be considered part of the upper middle class based upon family income. Upper 5% I think. Perhaps there are people under me that are doing better, but I doubt it. Most opponents of a high tax Socialist system make the mistake of not subtracting the expenses that they wouldn't have to worry about. And if I had my way, telecommunications, transportation, and energy would all by non-profit sectors. Imagine this, all things being equal, take away the cost of corporate profits in your expenses. I fail to see how getting rid of massive executive perks and severance pay will make things less efficient.

	05-05-2003 20:37									#117
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On the standard of living issue :

As most with a reasonable knowledge about how GDP's are calculated I'd say it's not really fair to compare two countries with very different structures as scandinavian countries and the US. If a larger part of the economic is public in one country compared to the other there's a great risk of a bias in the estimate. As the goods and services that are produced by the public sector is not sold on a marked it's very hard to find out the value of them. The value is often considered to be equal to the costs. In other words, there's no profits and no productivity growth. Add to this the problems with benchmarking. A short glance at the figures might be missleading.

	05-05-2003 20:38									#118
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GDP is a bad indicator because a handful of super-rich corporations can throw off the entire scale for everyone.

	05-05-2003 20:55									#119
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GDP is bad because things like the Exxon Valdez disaster increase it. A teacher of mine said it is like an adding machine that cannot subtract. It is also notoriously unreliable at counting government contributions to the economy.

Anyway, who cares about GDP. The whole point of the UN Human Development Index is that it was created to give a more accurate view of living standards.

	05-05-2003 21:03									#120
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THe HDI is not more accurate, it's just different.