05-05-2003 02:04									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Socialism can only work in a society in which everyone is honest, hardworking and sincere. Basically, until people learn to treat others as their brothers and sisters, socialism will always spawn massive corruption and authoritarian government. A socialist system is too advanced for us. Until we learn that cooperation is better than competition, we must rely on selfishness to keep otherwise slothful people hard at work.

You have confused Socialism with Communism. Communism is a state where there is a classles society and the government has withered away, Marx's utopia. Socialism is the form of government in that the average person's greed is contained until we have advanced enough socially to reach a state of Communism, hence progressive taxes and govermnet owned industries. I'm not a beleiver in total nationalization of industries, only the very large ones, in my type of socialism there can still be small, privately owned "Mom 'n' Pop" stores and cottage industies; just not private "Supercorporations" since the stocks of corporations will be divided equally to that corporation's workers.

	05-05-2003 02:06									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I take it you mean Muldoon. Hardly Kim Il Sung though, was he?

New Zealand politics are rather strange. Sometimes the lefties create right-wing policies, and vice versa. Don't try to make sense of any of it.

	05-05-2003 02:09									#63
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quote: Originally posted by statusperfect You call the crisis 1991-1994 a success? We had a 500% interest on bank loans to cool down the inflating economy.

I meant a success for the conservative/liberal coalition in the elections. The economy started to turn bad before the election, and the voters wanted a change. Then the socialist could blame the conservatives for the bad economy. How convenient...

And the 500% interest was not on bank loans, it was on a very special kind of loan between financial institutions. The interest on bank loans was never above 15% IIRC.

	05-05-2003 02:22									#64
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Becoming a socialist is easy. Take a large hammer and hit yourself in the head. If you are still able to form rational thoughts and think criticially then return step one.

	05-05-2003 02:29									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Becoming a socialist is easy. Take a large hammer and hit yourself in the head. If you are still able to form rational thoughts and think criticially then return step one.

Did I insult your mother in a past life or something?

	05-05-2003 02:59									#66
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A socialist is someone who has read Marx. A capitalist is someone who understood Marx.

	05-05-2003 03:02									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies Did I insult your mother in a past life or something?

Please notice the smilie.

	05-05-2003 03:05									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre I meant a success for the conservative/liberal coalition in the elections. The economy started to turn bad before the election, and the voters wanted a change. Then the socialist could blame the conservatives for the bad economy. How convenient... And the 500% interest was not on bank loans, it was on a very special kind of loan between financial institutions. The interest on bank loans was never above 15% IIRC.

1-0 to Olaf. Forgive my ignorance.

	05-05-2003 03:06									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Becoming a socialist is easy. Take a large hammer and hit yourself in the head. If you are still able to form rational thoughts and think criticially then return step one.

	05-05-2003 03:08									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Please notice the smilie.

Oops. I forgot mine

	05-05-2003 03:08									#71
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I've seen people say the same thing about conservatives, but, this thread is about socialists so they got to be the butt of the joke.

	05-05-2003 03:12									#72
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And hey, since all socialists get fat off the welfare state, it's one hell of a big butt!

	05-05-2003 03:16									#73
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quote: Socialism can only work in a society in which everyone is honest, hardworking and sincere. Basically, until people learn to treat others as their brothers and sisters, socialism will always spawn massive corruption and authoritarian government. A socialist system is too advanced for us. Until we learn that cooperation is better than competition, we must rely on selfishness to keep otherwise slothful people hard at work.

quote: These days, socialist is one of the worst labels to get attached to. No, not because of stigmas or anything, though I'd imagine there's some of that, too, but becaue everyone and their brother has a different definition of socialism. When some say socialism, they think of Scandinavia, others think of Soviet Union, and some even claim the current US system is socialistic. Parties from Marxist parties in African states to wishy-washy European third-wayite social democrat parties can call themselves and be called socialists. So, what are we talking about when we're talking about socialism, here?

	05-05-2003 03:17									#74
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Conclusion: This thread is dead. Time to let it dissapear into darkness.

	05-05-2003 03:19									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies And hey, since all socialists get fat off the welfare state, it's one hell of a big butt!

	05-05-2003 03:20									#76
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Wow. Taking the piss out of oneself is so much easier than I first imagined...

	05-05-2003 03:21									#77
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* A socialist is someone who has read Marx. A capitalist is someone who understood Marx.

If this makes sense to you which one are you?

	05-05-2003 03:23									#78
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quote: You have confused Socialism with Communism.

Read Stefu's post again. Socialism has 3 billion different definitions depending on who you ask (ok, that might be a small exaggeration... but only small ).

Iain: I wouldn't pin you as someone who'd quote Reagan .

	05-05-2003 03:34									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies And hey, since all socialists get fat off the welfare state, it's one hell of a big butt!

Thats better then the crime resulting from poverty.

Social Darwinists.

	05-05-2003 03:35									#80
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You cant get fat from welfare state. You just dont have to die on the streets or kill someone else to live.

	05-05-2003 03:38									#81
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Sssssh Paiktis, don't break their misconceptions

	05-05-2003 03:39									#82
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didnt take more than a line

	05-05-2003 05:19									#83
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* A socialist is someone who has read Marx. A capitalist is someone who understood Marx.

	05-05-2003 05:25									#84
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Capitalist Worker Student Society

	05-05-2003 05:38									#85
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Capitalist Worker Student Society

Thats an oxymoron.

	05-05-2003 07:25									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Scandinavia does not have the same standard of living as the U.S.

Then take a look at The Netherlands, it's standard of living is comparable and they've adopted many socialist principles.

There's absolutely no reason why Socialism and Capitalism can't coexist in the same society. Though a better term would be Social Democracy. Some things can be done better by the market, others are by the government. It's just a question of experimenting to find the right balance.

And as for the US having a better standard of living than Scandinavia, that all depends on what side of the economic fence you're on. The poor in America can be very poor indeed. The gap between the two extremes is wide, more so than many European countries, as well as Canada. We're heading for a Social Democratic society as well.

	05-05-2003 07:37									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Show me one with low taxes.

Canada. Our tax rates aren't that much higher than the US overall, and in some sectors are lower. We've had to keep them fairly low in order to stay competitive with the US. Granted we don't have a huge military force, but as someone mentioned, it's a matter of priorities. We've decided that it doesn't make a lot of sense spending billions on something that only kills people and destroys infrastructure, we'd rather devote those resources to our people.

	05-05-2003 08:38									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Willem There's absolutely no reason why Socialism and Capitalism can't coexist in the same society.

Actually, there is. Ceteris parabus, people prefer socialism to capitalism, and it tends to beat capitalism at its own game. That's why capitalists have had to rig the game. When push comes to shove, they will toss the game board or take all the pieces and go home or simply shoot the other players.

	05-05-2003 08:45									#89
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, there is. Ceteris parabus,p people prefer socialism to capitalism, and it tends to beat capitalism at its own game. That's why capitalists have had to rig the game. When push comes to shove, they will toss the game board or take all the pieces and go home or simply shoot the other players.

In any argument there are the two extremes, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Maoism/Stalinism/Marxism are one extreme, the laissez faire approach of the US is the other. Somewhere in between we'll find the ideal societal model. We just need to have the courage to experiment until we find the right balance.

	05-05-2003 08:58									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Scandinavia does not have the same standard of living as the U.S.

No!!! Scandinavian standard of living is higher!!!
check this link:
http://www.globastat.com/p15.htm

USA is 30 in the rank.