12-05-2003 03:34									#121
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The dixie chiks did not speak to the press, they made a statement to thier fans, and moved on. That the rpess decided to make it public cause they are famous, well, that was the press.


A similar act would be for someone who ahd disagree with them to, when some reporter came by, say "I though it was inappropriate", or "I think the rpez is right in what he is doing", or "I am proud GWB comes form Texas", and people writing to the editor saying the same things: these would have been similar acts of people voicing thier opinions. Boycotts and burning of materials are beyond: they are trying to punish people for what they had every right to say.

THey are not the same thing!

	12-05-2003 03:35									#122
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Would you want to go to the county fair's stock yard, only to have a pig start singing?

No, but I wouldn;t boycott bacon because it happened.

	12-05-2003 03:35									#123
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If I start a boycott of the product, call over the press, get some examples and burn them in public..that goes beyond me just voicing my opino of their act, of their product. it becomes me trying to force the maker to stop what they are doing..it is me trying to end their actions, to limit their freedom in this one way.

You are ASSUMING what their intent is... They are just saying they will no longer spend their hard earned money to support them... It is not going beyond voicing their opinions. Again... The DC's comments were in the press... nothing wrong with the LEGAL protesters doing the same... that is, unless you have a problem with people who disagree with you being able to use the press as well

SO...

IT IS THE SAME THING

	12-05-2003 03:36									#124
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Go make up for the boycotters.
Protest.
Stock up on CD's.

	12-05-2003 03:38									#125
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The dixie chiks did not speak to the press

When their are cameras running and microphones stuck in your face... YOU ARE SPEAKING TO THE PRESS!

	12-05-2003 03:41									#126
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There are plenty of Nietzshce quotes that would be very appropriate here, but I don;t crae to waste more energy on this thread to do it.

	12-05-2003 03:41									#127
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave I always thought the greatest freedom we enjoyed was the ability to criticise our government free from threats or repercussions from governments and fellow citizens. I guess the Dixie Chicks and Tim Robbins learned the hard way that wasn't the case, so they better pack their bags, eh??

Sure, if you like, you could even be their tour guide if you like!

I was simply stating if you dont like being here leave.
I mean, why would a person of adult age, stay someplace that was so oppressive or poorly run by its governments officials?

Wait, maybe these folks whom think they can do it better should run for a political office and show the rest of us how it should be done?

Nope, I have no problems with folks voicing any opinions, I voiced mine and you voiced yours.

My point is this....

Love it or Leave it..please dont run it in the ground.

Peace

Grandpa Troll

	12-05-2003 03:41									#128
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Yeah, they spoke to the press, but what did they say that was so controversal that it deserved a boycot?

	12-05-2003 03:43									#129
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Deserves is in the eye of the beholder.
Fans don't like what they hear, so they do what GePap and Che advocate.

They protested.

	12-05-2003 03:45									#130
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quote: Originally posted by GePap There are plenty of Nietzshce quotes that would be very appropriate here, but I don;t crae to waste more energy on this thread to do it.

Yeah... run away and limit your losses. Probably a good plan for you

You can argue all you want about how they are doing it is different... but it's not.

It's people expressing their opinions in LEGAL ways.

Your whole argument is that the DC's can state their opinions, and people that disagree with them can't.

Not a very fair or good argument

	12-05-2003 03:48									#131
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Nietzshce's (sp) dead.

Long live God.

	12-05-2003 03:49									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ming IT IS THE SAME THING

	12-05-2003 03:52									#133
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quote: Your whole argument is that the DC's can state their opinions, and people that disagree with them can't. Not a very fair or good argument

fans can state their opinons, but not in ways designed to expressly chastize or punish someone else for having a different political opinion than theirs. TRhe statement made by the Dixie Chickas was never concurrent with the acts of the disgruntled fans, and if you fail to see that, well, then that's your problem.

	12-05-2003 03:54									#134
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To anyone who doesn't like Göran Persson, the great prime minister! It's my right to tell them to go to hell! I will buy a liberal newspaper every day and burn it for everyone to see, so they understand how wrong they are to not speak well of our great Social Democrat government.

*Irony*

	12-05-2003 03:56									#135
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I doubt the liberals will care about you burning the newspaper as long as you pay for it first.

	12-05-2003 03:57									#136
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Your problem is that you want to deny LEGAL forms of protest to DC's fans.

We all agree that death threats and other illegal actions by a few morons is wrong...

But what the fans are doing is PERFECTLY LEGAL... as LEGAL AS THE DC'S giving their opinions.

ANYBODY that speaks their mind in a public forum is subject to what happens. A politician may not get re-elected... A company might face a boycott... An announcer might get fired... A band may lose record sales... NO DIFFERENCE.

The FANS have RIGHTS too... to bad you want to deny them of these basic legal rights...

	12-05-2003 03:59									#137
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Yeah, and the Chicksie Dix get paid for the burned CD:s too. What I heard is that their conserts are still sold out, so I don't think they suffer economically.

	12-05-2003 04:05									#138
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Currently it is legal for the governmrnt to arrest you and keep you in prison ijdefenitelly, without giving a judge any reasons, as long as they say they have evidence that you have aided terrorism in a way that makes you an illegal combatant.

That is is legal does not make it right.

quote: ANYBODY that speaks their mind in a public forum is subject to what happens. A politician may not get re-elected... A company might face a boycott... An announcer might get fired... A band may lose record sales... NO DIFFERENCE.

There are obvious differences just within the groups you stated. A Politician owes his jobs to the voters: he knows the voters cna take it away if he displeases them. An announcer should never be fired for making purely political statements. And corporations don;t make statements on politics, they take acts,which is one step beyond saying something. And again, people not buying is not the same as a boycott, for reason I already stated why.

DC: "I am ashamed the president comes from Texas"
Fan: "what, you stupid little hoars, how dare you say that! you are wrong! I will never buy your stuff again! Not only that, i will go and burn a few of your CD's! and I will participate ina boycott, just to show you how wrong you were to ever critizice our president!"

Oh yeah, those are the same thing......

	12-05-2003 04:10									#139
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quote: Originally posted by GePap That is is legal does not make it right.

Why isn't it right? People do boycotts all the time... this isn't any different. Are you really claiming that ALL boycotts aren't right... or just boycotts against people you agree with

quote: There are obvious differences just within the groups you stated. A Politician owes his jobs to the voters: he knows the voters cna take it away if he displeases them.

A musician owes his job to the fans... without them, there is no job. The fans give, and can stop giving... no difference here

	12-05-2003 04:13									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Ming A musician owes his job to the fans... without them, there is no job. The fans give, and can stop giving... no difference here

	12-05-2003 04:14									#141
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Yes, musicians owe their music to their fans, but all they owe their fans is good music, not political agreement. I don't know the political views of any of the people I listen to, and I could not care less. And I will say it for the umpteenth time: not buying is different from holding CD burnings and boycotts.

I never said that fans should be denied the legal ability to do what they did, but it was certainly not right for them to do it. Such actions are meant not only to show displeasure, since statements and lower sales would be enough (or attending anti-DC concerts, or pro-Bush concerts), but to try to punish someone publicly for political statements made is counter to the spirit of the freedoms given in the US.

	12-05-2003 04:18									#142
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Okay now you're just being naive.

Part of what makes up perfomers' appeal to the fans is the fans opinion of them. That includes what they look like, what values they stand for, etc.

	12-05-2003 04:20									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Why isn't it right? People do boycotts all the time... this isn't any different. Are you really claiming that ALL boycotts aren't right... or just boycotts against people you agree with

Not all boycotts are right. I am sure you think Nazi lead boycotts of jewish business were wrong. But why are they wrong? isn't it the right of honest Germans to express their distaste of jews by not buying their goods? erhaps it is the notion of "showing thier distatest of Jews" that is the problem?

I would never boycott Dennis Miller for what he says about Iraq. I don;t listen to his comedy, but he has the right to keep saying what he says, without public punishment form the public.

Boycotts against policies or acts, such as segergation, apartheid, slavery, political oppression, religious persecution, these sorts of boycotts are totally correct, just as protest aginst these things are correct, BUt boycotting individuals for free political statements made is NOT right, becuase the net effect of such an act is to dimish freedom of expression, enforcing a bland, depoliticized climate, which is utterly wrong.

	12-05-2003 04:22									#144
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, musicians owe their music to their fans, but all they owe their fans is good music

I know tons of GREAT musicians who don't make money and are waiters during the day. To be successful, you have to connect with the fans... The fans have to like you, or it won't matter how good your music is. So if they want to be successful musicians... you need more than just your music.

quote: I never said that fans should be denied the legal ability to do what they did, but it was certainly not right for them to do it.

Again... you are saying it's not right for them to participate in legal activities... What is wrong with it...
You keep saying it's intent or whatever crap... but it still is expression of opinions in the end.

It's really simple... The DC's can express their opinions in legal fashion, and SO CAN THEIR FANS.

What is so difficult about this for you to understand.

	12-05-2003 04:22									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Okay now you're just being naive. Part of what makes up perfomers' appeal to the fans is the fans opinion of them. That includes what they look like, what values they stand for, etc.

If the fans don;t like a new do, then just stop buying thier new stuff. But burning of CD's and public boycotts? when felicity cut her hair (yes, I remember that whole stupid thing) a lot of fans were oturaged..but none began boycotting the actress, or burning thie rold tapes of the show, and if they had, everyone would have said: look how stupid these fans are! Well, why is it any different here? So the Dc don;t like BUsh? WHO GIVES A SH!T??!! if you do, then you are a MORAN!

	12-05-2003 04:26									#147
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Not all boycotts are right. I am sure you think Nazi lead boycotts of jewish business were wrong.

Thanks for admitting you lost this one...

Anybody that has to resort to comparing this to the Nazi's shows they have given up and just blowing smoke.

Boycotts are legal. PEOPLE CAN SPEND THEIR MONEY HOWEVER THEY WANT TO... Are you saying people should be forced to buy their music? There is nothing wrong with a boycott... It's NOT EVIL... people made them famous and wealthy... now they want to stop.
IT'S THEIR RIGHT.

	12-05-2003 04:26									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ming It's really simple... The DC's can express their opinions in legal fashion, and SO CAN THEIR FANS. What is so difficult about this for you to understand.

Becuase the INTENT of the fans was to PUNISH the DC for their expression of their rights. That simple fact makes the different in right and wrong.

	12-05-2003 04:29									#149
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Steps between GePap and Ming


Look..cant we just get along?..you know..agree to disagree?


Psst..GePap..hes the Moderator..and well..you have tickets to Dixie Chicksies..BUT

Hes got tickets to Mingapulco..

Ok..just wanted to make sure everyone knows the rulz!!



Ok..just a wee bit of humor...pleaze..
No panties in a wad..ok?


Peace

Grandpa Troll

	12-05-2003 04:31									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Thanks for admitting you lost this one... Anybody that has to resort to comparing this to the Nazi's shows they have given up and just blowing smoke. Boycotts are legal. PEOPLE CAN SPEND THEIR MONEY HOWEVER THEY WANT TO... Are you saying people should be forced to buy their music? There is nothing wrong with a boycott... It's NOT EVIL... people made them famous and wealthy... now they want to stop. IT'S THEIR RIGHT.

quote: Anybody that has to resort to comparing this to the Nazi's shows they have given up and just blowing smoke.

And of course you don't quote the rest? how convinient.

a boycott is not just not buying!!!!! A boycott goes beyond that. A boycott means someone organizing an active campaing against the artist.

People did not make them wealthy becuase they agreed with thier poltiics: they made them wealthy cause they liked their music. If they are stupid enough to have assumed what the politics of these girls were, well, thats their problem, not that of the DC.