12-05-2003 04:52									#151
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And of course you don't quote the rest? how convinient.

Why bother quoting more irrelevent information. Comparing this action to the Nazi's is just blowing smoke.

quote: a boycott is not just not buying!!!!! A boycott goes beyond that. A boycott means someone organizing an active campaing against the artist.

So what... It's their right to do so. They made them rich... they can stop doing so. That's their way of getting their opinions listened to by the press... Unlike the DC's... they don't have the press at their beck and call. They have every right of "using" the press to get their opinions across just like the DC's did.

quote: People did not make them wealthy becuase they agreed with thier poltiics: they made them wealthy cause they liked their music.

As I and others have stated before (which you ignore because it doesn't fit into your arguments), it's more than just the music. They made them wealthy because they liked their music and them. Once they let their fans down by showing them a side of themselves they didn't like... the gravy train ended. As it should. The fans have the right to buy or not to buy... to organize a boycott or not. IT'S their right.

The DC's are the real morons here. They should have known how their fan base would react to their statements... And then to whine about it is even funnier... In business (and this is business) the first lesson you learn is "DON'T PISS OFF YOUR FAN'S"...

Obviously a lesson they never learned.

There is nothing wrong with them having opinions different than their fans... and nothing wrong with them expressing them... But they were morons to think that it wouldn't effect sales... because fans have the same rights of free expression... and a legal boycott is just one of them.

	12-05-2003 05:24									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Why bother quoting more irrelevent information. Comparing this action to the Nazi's is just blowing smoke.

What, so, when you make a Nazi comparison your argument is trash? Pretty naive IMO? Why is it some people have such a hard time accepting a Nazi comparison within a historical perspective instead of getting feisty when that word is even mentioned?

For the record, I think ultimately the DC and the fans have the right to do whatever they want. The fans can go and boicott their music, fine with me. Goes to show just how brainless and moronic those fans are and frankly, if I were the DC I'd rather have few GOOD fans than a bunch of lousy ones.

Also, I do think that being a fan of an artist goes a little more than just listening to the music. IMO great artists are also great people and what they do in life certainly affects my perception of them. Then again, there are people who don't think this way too. I guess it all depends on each of us.

	12-05-2003 05:26									#153
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And you're allowed your opinion, just as other fans and/or former fans and/or never fans are allowed the same right.

Oh, I forgot. You won't see this.

	12-05-2003 05:34									#154
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BTW, I was going to respond to the idea of this thread, not on this DC debate...


I think "patriotism" has gone overboard in the US. Theres really a limit to what is sane patriotism and what is just crazy right-wing nutness and sadly a lot of that is going around, at least that's what I felt the last time I visited which was about a year ago. I assume that due to the Iraq war it is even worse now. Loving one's country and wishing the best for it is IMO something that every citizen of every country should have. Support of its troops even despite a war being waged unjustly is also fair since those troops don't decide whether they want to fight or not, it's their job.

However, what ticks me off is how this "patriotism" has turned into mindless French-bashing (the ultimate in hipocrecy), blind belief in everything the government spits out, and narrowmindedness in hearing and especially accepting other points of view. I have always found if funny that the term "un-American" exists. I believe it is the only country which has such term, and even funnier that in a country which values individualism and diverstiy so much, it chooses to brand a concept as being "American" or not. What is "American"? Who has a monopoly on that definition? Why is not supporting the war, or supporting Bush seen by some as "un-American"?

If everyone has the liberty to say what they please, I find such a word almost a classic Orwellian example of doublespeak.

Anyway, I applaud the people, like the person who started this thread, who doubt what is being said around them. They are in my book, far more patriotic than others who just go around spouting blasphemies in the name of their country.

	12-05-2003 05:37									#155
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand And you're allowed your opinion, just as other fans and/or former fans and/or never fans are allowed the same right. Oh, I forgot. You won't see this.

Just because you like mexican beer I am seeing this

	12-05-2003 05:41									#156
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Oh, MAN! Fooled my nappy ass.

	12-05-2003 05:52									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen What, so, when you make a Nazi comparison your argument is trash?

Yeah... when it isn't relevent
And all you are trying to do is distract from the argument by using the ole Nazi Boggie Man...

	12-05-2003 05:54									#158
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Actually, I'm sure Hitler had some good thoughts.
It's just that they got lost in the shuffle of all the terrible ones.

	12-05-2003 05:56									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel So do you think only the real men that saw combat can decide national policy? Because that's what you're saying. The hawks that never saw combat don't have the right to do it, and the doves that never saw combat neither have the right to do it, nor want to do it. Only the real hardcore supertroopers have the right to determine policy.

Azazel, actually this was the system during the Roman Empire. The only people who could hold office and in fact the only people could vote for those who held office were the "military."

Seem to do Romans quite well.

	12-05-2003 06:02									#160
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quote: However, what ticks me off is how this "patriotism" has turned into mindless French-bashing

sheesh. I can understand reading a lot of extreme gerneralizations about America, but i fear some people on these forums may actually believe them

	12-05-2003 06:03									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yeah... when it isn't relevent And all you are trying to do is distract from the argument by using the ole Nazi Boggie Man...

umm... nope.

You're the one distracting from the argument by saying it is trash and not bothering to answer it intellecutally. I for one have never been offended by a Nazi comparison, or a comparison for any other historical perspective. If the argument is trash, I'll trash it with a reply, not use the Nazi Boogie Man as an excuse.

	12-05-2003 06:05									#162
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Actually, I'm sure Hitler had some good thoughts. It's just that they got lost in the shuffle of all the terrible ones.

and it takes just a few terrible ones to blow away all the good ones.... and that goes to ANY regime, not just Hitler's.

	12-05-2003 06:06									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman sheesh. I can understand reading a lot of extreme gerneralizations about America, but i fear some people on these forums may actually believe them

I am not saying all people in the US, not even a majority in fact, hold these views. Unfortunately, those happen to be the ones with the biggest mouths.

	12-05-2003 06:18									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I think "patriotism" has gone overboard in the US. Theres really a limit to what is sane patriotism and what is just crazy right-wing nutness and sadly a lot of that is going around, at least that's what I felt the last time I visited which was about a year ago. I assume that due to the Iraq war it is even worse now. Loving one's country and wishing the best for it is IMO something that every citizen of every country should have. Support of its troops even despite a war being waged unjustly is also fair since those troops don't decide whether they want to fight or not, it's their job. ... Anyway, I applaud the people, like the person who started this thread, who doubt what is being said around them. They are in my book, far more patriotic than others who just go around spouting blasphemies in the name of their country.

Right wing nuttiness! The problem with this post and the original post by John C. MacLeod are that it assumes that a belief that America is good and can do good is right wing nuttiness. Patriotism does not believe that United States is better than other countries and that Americans are better than other people. It believes in certain general principles such as democracy and human rights. We patriotic Americans are willing to fight for freedom, for ourselves for the sake of others. We are willing to fight and die to liberate people being oppressed by a Nazi dictator. We welcome the support of others in the world who believe the same as we do. This is inclusive, non exclusive. Our patriotism is a belief that we can do good and have done good in liberating Iraq. When we succeed in liberating a people and bringing them freedom and justice from oppression and murder, we are proud. Such is American patriotism.

	12-05-2003 06:31									#165
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So, then, anyone who DOESN'T belive that you can do good and have doon good in liberating Iraq is un-Patriotic? See what I mean?

Btw, don't even bring up democracy and human rights in the issue as there are countless examples of the US ignoring these things.

	12-05-2003 07:05									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen So, then, anyone who DOESN'T belive that you can do good and have doon good in liberating Iraq is un-Patriotic? See what I mean? Btw, don't even bring up democracy and human rights in the issue as there are countless examples of the US ignoring these things.

Our patriotism is based on our fundamental belief in democracy and human rights. We Americans do not assist the likes of Britain and France against Germany, China against Japan, South Korea against the Russians and Chinese, etc., for empire. We do it for democracy and human rights.

Those who oppose America because they are against democracy or human rights are our enemies. Some oppose us because they believe that we are Imperialists, that we are aquiring an Empire. That, though, is the propaganda of our enemies who historically have been the left and now are the Islamic right.

Now, tell us how we fail test because of Batista. Yes, to the extent Truman supported that man in '52, Truman was wrong. But, at the time we supported him, if we did, did we know he would rule as a brutal corrupt dictator?

	12-05-2003 07:31									#167
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Of course it's the people's rights to boycott a product. It is also legal for the government to tell the public to persecute the people who disagree with the government's policies. It is also for the government to amend the constitution to take away free speech and all voting laws.

I'm not saying the people should not be allowed to boycott certain products, it just isn't right to bash someone for stating their opinion.

	12-05-2003 07:39									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Our patriotism is based on our fundamental belief in democracy and human rights. We Americans do not assist the likes of Britain and France against Germany, China against Japan, South Korea against the Russians and Chinese, etc., for empire. We do it for democracy and human rights.

So, economic empire doesn't count...

Democracy and human rights in China...once again, one of the US's biggest trade partners and notorious for precicely a lack of those two things you base your patriotism on. Tell me, are the congressmen and presidents who give MFN status to China traitors?

quote: Those who oppose America because they are against democracy or human rights are our enemies. Some oppose us because they believe that we are Imperialists, that we are aquiring an Empire. That, though, is the propaganda of our enemies who historically have been the left and now are the Islamic right.

Frankly Ned, your discourse sounds to me the most recycled product of US propaganda imaginable, which for the record has been the single most effective propaganda maker in history (too bad it's starting to wear off thanks to Bush and co.). I can't believe you actually buy that...

...actually, I can.

quote: Now, tell us how we fail test because of Batista. Yes, to the extent Truman supported that man in '52, Truman was wrong. But, at the time we supported him, if we did, did we know he would rule as a brutal corrupt dictator?

if we ended up a brutal corrupt dictator why didn't you topple him? the US seems to use that excuse whenever it does its dirty work, why is Batista exempted? Oh... let me guess why, he was a US ass-kisser, that's why. So, rule #1 if you want to be a corrupt dictator: kiss the US's ass and your rule is assured.

	12-05-2003 08:16									#169
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Master Zen, your tactic of deliberately missing points is annoying.

	12-05-2003 08:17									#170
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But he's lengthy in doing so.

	12-05-2003 08:21									#171
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand But he's lengthy in doing so.

I heard that!!!

	12-05-2003 08:22									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman Master Zen, your tactic of deliberately missing points is annoying.

not as much as your one-line replies

	12-05-2003 08:32									#174
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quote: Dixie Chicks, Martin Sheen, Steven Spielberg and whoever can give their opinion. They're entitled.

I'm glad you brought this up, numbnuts... yes, let's boycott Steven Spielberg... who brought us the most patriotic f*cking movie in a long time... the man who dared to show the reality and brutality of war in Saving Private Ryan; commemorating the people that did sacrifice for the war... but yet Spielberg isn't a patriot because he doesn't support a chickensh1thawk like Dubya??... the man who deserted his cushy national guard post to snort cocaine??...

why don't you smell what you're shoveling Sloww

	12-05-2003 08:33									#175
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There is no doubt that we should have pulled the plug on Batista earlier than we did. But we did eventually. Had the Platt amendment still been in force, there would have been no need for Batista's coup. Things really went downhill for Cuba, from the point of view of democracy, when Batista got rid of the Platt amendment.

The lack of American intervention was the problem with Batista.

	12-05-2003 08:36									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen not as much as your one-line replies

well then, if im annoying you more than you me, then I win

	12-05-2003 08:37									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The lack of American intervention was the problem with Batista.

As well as every other "bad" regime in history right?

I wonder who's going to solve the problem of a "bad" US government...

	12-05-2003 08:38									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman well then, if im annoying you more than you me, then I win

If you really annoyed me I wouldn't bother to answer

	12-05-2003 08:41									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen If you really annoyed me I wouldn't bother to answer

then i lose

	12-05-2003 08:43									#180
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what's this stupid argument here?
Let's just chant!

USA! USA! USA!