12-05-2003 10:34									#211
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We just have the biggest loudspeaker (among other things).

	12-05-2003 10:35									#212
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Every country that is in a position to do something to help their own self interest does it... and they always justify it with some crap or another... Nothing new... It's been going from the start of time and will continue.

Your point?

	12-05-2003 10:35									#213
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quote: We just have the biggest loudspeaker (among other things).

You don't even need one ...

Edit: added quote

	12-05-2003 10:38									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Every country that is in a position to do something to help their own self interest does it... and they always justify it with some crap or another... Nothing new... It's been going from the start of time and will continue. Your point?

My point is that many of your countrymen, starting from certain posters in this tread believe all that BS. Nothing more nothing less.

What's your point Ming?

	12-05-2003 10:40									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yes, the US is guilty as charged... Just like most other countries...

Which totally undercuts the cheerleading "we're sooo ****ing noble, you should be grateful" cheerleading BS."

People don't do this "Amurka, love it or leave it" USA USA USA crap on the basis of "we're self-interested SOB's, we're just more successful at it than you are." If people were honest that their patriotism was really schlong waving about economic power, nobody would care. It's the nobility and goodness crap that makes other people puke.

	12-05-2003 10:45									#216
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Yeah MtG... some people are a "tad" overboard with it

I just think it's a crock when people think all americans are like that. Many of us aren't.

	12-05-2003 10:49									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I just think it's a crock when people think all americans are like that. Many of us aren't.

and who said all of you are that got you all jumpy?

	12-05-2003 10:50									#218
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My schlong waving is recognition of having a big schlong.

	12-05-2003 10:52									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen and who said all of you are that got you all jumpy?

From reading through these forums... you can see that some people do

Every country has their fair share of ignorant fools... The US is no different

	12-05-2003 12:38									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I find it incredible that you continue to Paint everybody because of what a few have done. Most people aren't saying they don't have a right to express their opinion. Most people are saying that if you do express your opinion, you should be ready to accept what happens because you have done so.

Is that so? So how come lots and lots of neocons keep on sprouting "Love it or Leave it?" Wasn't it GWB who said "You are either with us or with them?"

	12-05-2003 13:19									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Right wing nuttiness! The problem with this post and the original post by John C. MacLeod are that it assumes that a belief that America is good and can do good is right wing nuttiness. Patriotism does not believe that United States is better than other countries and that Americans are better than other people. It believes in certain general principles such as democracy and human rights. We patriotic Americans are willing to fight for freedom, for ourselves for the sake of others. We are willing to fight and die to liberate people being oppressed by a Nazi dictator. We welcome the support of others in the world who believe the same as we do. This is inclusive, non exclusive. Our patriotism is a belief that we can do good and have done good in liberating Iraq. When we succeed in liberating a people and bringing them freedom and justice from oppression and murder, we are proud. Such is American patriotism.

Get a brain.

You know, it would be easy to find a parallel to this drivel in Nazi propaganda, but the hostorical context isn't correct. Much better to look for french and british rants justifying colonialism. You know, eg from the early 1880s on, Britain spent about 40 years bringing civilization, freedom and democracy to Egypt....

	12-05-2003 20:51									#222
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HO, et al., well it is clear that there are cynics here in the United States who support a foreign policy based solely on economic and security interests and who see nothing in American ideals that are worthy of pride. But, clearly, the Flag-waving Americans do not think this way. This is not to say that economic interests and security interest are not also important foreign-policy considerations. We just do not believe they should be given primacy unless the threat is overwhelmingly clear -- such as we see in Osama bin Laden.

As the your status, HO, as an Austrian and your raising the issue of Nazi Germany, if it wasn't for America and her foolish, brain-dead ideals, you today would be living in the Third Reich. It is almost offensive for someone in your country to snicker at American patriotism.

	12-05-2003 21:03									#223
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Ned, I think that is not solid.. about Austrian people not being able to think what they want about others, for example American patriotism. It would be the same if an American laughed at lets say scandinavias tight immigrant control and call us racists, and then we would say you can't really say that because you were the ones who kidnapped bunch of Africans and the whole slavery thing. See my point? Old things are old and what could have happened didn't happen, so we can't know what could have happened or should have happened. It's all speculation, and the facts from it are history.
This was not meant as attack, just as a sidenote.

	12-05-2003 21:07									#224
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quote: Patriotism does not believe that United States is better than other countries and that Americans are better than other people. It believes in certain general principles such as democracy and human rights. We patriotic Americans are willing to fight for freedom, for ourselves for the sake of others. We are willing to fight and die to liberate people being oppressed by a Nazi dictator. We welcome the support of others in the world who believe the same as we do. This is inclusive, non exclusive. Our patriotism is a belief that we can do good and have done good in liberating Iraq. When we succeed in liberating a people and bringing them freedom and justice from oppression and murder, we are proud. Such is American patriotism.

Did you type that with a straight face?

If it's a troll, fine. If not, you fall into the category of people who genuinely scare me. Not because they are bad people. But because they can be so easily led to support things if a politician utters magic words like "freedom." Even if freedom has nothing to do with it.

I really hope the result of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" (*puke*) is a free, democratic Iraq that somehow manages not to hate us. I really do. I love the good things about this country. I love the principles we so often ignore. Flag-waving, chest-thumping and white-washing do not make the USA a better place.

-Arrian

	12-05-2003 21:11									#225
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quote: who see nothing in American ideals that are worthy of pride. But, clearly, the Flag-waving Americans do not think this way

The immense, frightening, awfull amount of irony in that quote is amazing!

The American ideal is primarily internal: you are correct that the US never sought to be an empire, and that above all should show you were you are wrong! If there was some inherently American drive to spread American values, we would have been imperialist! We would have tried to talke other lands and spread to them our values and institutions, but we did not, for the most part. And what about those American ideals at home? When people attempt to stiffle debate, or attack those that disagree as anti-American, and demonize (as you are want to do) those that disagree with them, that is a true attacks agaisnt the values of America. You sit here saying to trully believe in democracy and freedom, yet call your fellow citizens who disagree 'evil"???? Do you not see a fundamental flaw in that?

quote: you today would be living in the Third Reich. It is almost offensive for someone in your country to snicker at American patriotism.

Funny, but it was the awfull, evil Soviets who did most of the heavy lifting to defeat Nazism, as well as communist elsewhere, such as Tito's partisans. Do Europeans owe a huge debt of gratitude to the millions upon millions of brave Soviet soldiers that died beating back the Werhmacht? Perhaps, if it weren't for the Soviets, you woul be living under the third Reich..waht right do you have to attack the soviets?

Do you see the logical flaws in your line of argument yet, Ned?

	12-05-2003 21:12									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Ned HO, et al., well it is clear that there are cynics here in the United States who support a foreign policy based solely on economic and security interests and who see nothing in American ideals that are worthy of pride.

No, they simply see "ideals" as the PR pablum that can be put on whatever policy choices they make.

quote: But, clearly, the Flag-waving Americans do not think this way.

You mean the ones with the "America, love it or leave it" stickers? Or the in the great photo I saw a few weeks back - some cracker with an American flag tee-shirt and a sign that said "France Germany Russia Mexico Chile you can all kiss my American ass."

quote: This is not to say that economic interests and security interest are not also important foreign-policy considerations. We just do not believe they should be given primacy unless the threat is overwhelmingly clear -- such as we see in Osama bin Laden.

I see they still have access to good weed there in Santa Cruz. Economic and security interests have been the only foreign policy considerations of the US.

quote: As the your status, HO, as an Austrian and your raising the issue of Nazi Germany, if it wasn't for America and her foolish, brain-dead ideals, you today would be living in the Third Reich.

The US intervened in Europe because Nazi Germany was a threat, and because we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. If it wasn't for the US, Europe would have "liberated" by the USSR, which would have collapsed under it's own bureucratic dead weight about the time it did anyway. The course of the cold war would have been a bit different, though.

quote: It is almost offensive for someone in your country to snicker at American patriotism.

YEAH!! You tell 'im. Hear that Roland, we made you pukes free, and you have the freedom we gave you to say what you want, as long as it isn't critical of the great, glorious, freedom-loving beacon of light and humanity and granola, the USA!!!

	12-05-2003 21:13									#227
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Arrian

	12-05-2003 21:14									#228
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He's trolling again.

	12-05-2003 21:16									#229
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat He's trolling again.

You have to admit he's insanely successful

	12-05-2003 21:20									#230
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Sometimes some American patriots rises to level, as if other countries don't like freedom, democrachssy etc. As if they are the only ones promoting it. As if the US is the only free country. As if we can't say a word, because we have different passport. As if US wars are about freeing others by default, without questioning. That is close to Jingoism, which I find dangerous.

	12-05-2003 21:23									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Sometimes some American patriots rises to level,

You can find morons and idiots sprouting nonsense in every country... why should America be any different

	12-05-2003 21:27									#232
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Arrian, if we do not put ideals ahead of security, we end up supporting dictators and we end up with empire (like the Roman empire). Focusing almost exclusively on security during the cold war help turn the world against us.

	12-05-2003 21:29									#233
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Pekka, OK, history is history.

But if we were solely focused on security, we probably would not have stuck our nose in either the Sino-Japanese war or Britain's war against Germany.

	12-05-2003 22:02									#234
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Ming, you are very correct.. so me not mentioning it was bad. And saying American patriots, it's not 100% true. There are different kind of patriots, they all consider them true patriots and still are very different, yet most likely they all are patriots by its definition. I didn't mean it to come out like that, sorry.

Ned, I don't know about that. Maybe, maybe not..I just wanted to say, that I think that wasn't a solid argument.

	12-05-2003 22:35									#235
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quote: Arrian, if we do not put ideals ahead of security, we end up supporting dictators and we end up with empire (like the Roman empire). Focusing almost exclusively on security during the cold war help turn the world against us

If you're arguing for more principled foreign policy, good for you, just don't even try to insinuate that our past or current policies have been/are principled.

I think principled American foreign policy (beacon of democracy, freedom and lots of other wonderful things, etc) is probably a pipe dream, so I think I'd settle for a "realistic" foreign policy + dropping the silly rhetoric/flag waving.

-Arrian

	12-05-2003 22:38									#236
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Ned, we "stuck our nose" into Japan's actions in the Pacific pre-Pearl Harbor because we saw ourselves as the big dog in the Pacific, and Japan was trying to rival us. We weren't pleased to have a strategic rival, and I'm sure on some level there was concern about the aggressive militarism Japan was displaying. So we embargoed them.

Principled? No. Power politics.

-Arrian

	12-05-2003 23:05									#237
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Which totally undercuts the cheerleading "we're sooo ****ing noble, you should be grateful" cheerleading BS." People don't do this "Amurka, love it or leave it" USA USA USA crap on the basis of "we're self-interested SOB's, we're just more successful at it than you are." If people were honest that their patriotism was really schlong waving about economic power, nobody would care. It's the nobility and goodness crap that makes other people puke.

Btw, that's EXACTLY what other countries do as well.

	12-05-2003 23:07									#238
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Everybody does it to some extent. But when you're the strongest, richest 'n loudest, the proverbial spotlight is on you. Your idiocy is prominently illuminated.

-Arrian

	12-05-2003 23:07									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Ned, we "stuck our nose" into Japan's actions in the Pacific pre-Pearl Harbor because we saw ourselves as the big dog in the Pacific, and Japan was trying to rival us. We weren't pleased to have a strategic rival, and I'm sure on some level there was concern about the aggressive militarism Japan was displaying. So we embargoed them. Principled? No. Power politics. -Arrian

Japan's invasion of China alone was more than enough reason for an embargo. You dismiss it as "power politics". I call it "stop helping the rampaging warmonger." For the record, most nations were appalled by and openly condemned Japan. The US was just in a position to do something about.

	12-05-2003 23:09									#240
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Actually, bald eagles are bastards. One of their common hunting tactics is to let ospreys (also called "fish hawks" in the US) catch a fish, then the higher flying (and quite a bit larger) eagle dive bombs the osprey, scaring the crap out of it and making it drop the fish, which the eagle then takes. Now if there's any symbolic linkage to it being the national bird....

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