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Lincoln
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In the US only the rich find justice. That is a sad fact.
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yavoon
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u can sue for lawyers costs. but its probably under malicious prosecution grounds.
and the knife cuts both ways. how do u sue someone like a major corporation when if u lose u pay THEIR costs. I mean can u imagine that negotiation. u might win, but we're gna pay our lawyers 3 million dollars to try and beat u. so I hope u can afford to lose.
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Lincoln
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Sorry to hear about this Korn. I have dealt with the courts many times and I am from the South like you. I sat on a jury about a year ago and if it was not for me they would have condemned an innocent man. Juries often use their own emotion when judging a case. In the case I sat on the man was a drug user. Even though that fact had no bearing on the case (a murder) they wanted to hang him "to get rid of the drug dealers in this county." That is life in the real world.
A friend of mine is now spending all his savings and is in danger of losing his house in order to pay attorney fees to fight a charge he is innocent of. He who has the most money wins. And after he wins (if he does) it cost him several thousand dollars and his acusers walk scot free. The system is broken and I suggest that you make the best decision you can based on the reality in your area. Innocent until proven guilty means nothing to a jury if they don't like you.
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Dr Strangelove
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Don't midemeanors get wiped from your record after a certain number of years?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:28
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Sorry to hear this Korn. This must be killing you right now mentally and physically too. I don't have experience with this kind of things, but I've been charged when I was in school. Nothing serious though, and only resulted in small fine, but it was so bad for me, I was stressed for so long. It was only a misdemenaour (though we don't use that term here in Finland, it's crime and that's it), and I didn't get any records (it was that I smoked pot, got caught, admitted it, these days they don't even charge first timers with that, they just get quick fine but then it was more serious). So my things can't be compared, I just wanted to say that I feel for you since it's so much worse for you and I know what I felt then so..
.. Ok I had a lawyer appointed by the court because I didn't have any money. He sucked so major balls I can't believe it. I could have done better. He didn't do anything. ANYTHING. He just sat their, and when it was my time to go, my 'lawyer' was reading a case of his other client! He didn't even listen what was going on in the court. I was so f'ed up there I coudln't believe it. I whispered to him 'that's not true, you gotta say something' when they told I did this and that which I can honestly say I had no idea what the hell they were talking about. Social worker did interview because I was underaged at the time, so she said I wasn't a threat and I was just a normal kid who knows the seriousness of this and takes it seriously and feels bad about this. At least she was defending me. My lawyer offered my coffee back in his office and asked my like 10 questions 'did you do it' 'what's your version' and when I was telling it he answered his cell phone and told me to 'go on'. He didn't show ANY interest to my case what so ever. But I couldn't fire him and ask for another one, because it was only one day to court and so on..
Fortunately my thing was not very serious crimes, but I'm telling you not all free lawyers appointed by the court are good  . I was getting porked in the butt for the whole time. I mean even the judge defended me because my lawyer just kept reading othse cases IN COURT when it was MY time. After court I was smoking cigarrette outside the court house and the DA came and joined me, even he was wondering where I got my super lawyer. He was that bad . I'm glad I have a clean record though, no thanks to my lawyer.
This is not helping you at all, but I just want to say that I wish you the best of luck and I hope everything goes well. I'm not expert at all, but it seems to me they want to make some kind of deal but only because they know it won't hold in court, so think about it if you want to bargain or not. To me it sounds like these guys don't have much on you and just want to BS you around to get you something out of this. But then again I don't know, and misdemeanour is not that bad if you get it off your records.. so .. but hey take it easy and allow yourself some quality time to release the pressures.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:28
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Oerdin
while they do have other crimes to go after, this is a fairly low crime area. they have a couple of murders but other than that, on the state level it's all small time stuff, so mine case is apparently just as legitimate as any other.
Ming
my biggest problem is i think there is a 50/50 (maybe even 60/40 depending on the jury, that one of the misdemeanors could stick, and without the plea, i'd face jail time (again up to 6 months), whereas with the plea i won't. i'd rather go with a zero percent chance of going to jail compared to like a 50% of either nothing or jailtime, even if this means i have a misdemeanor on my record.
Spiffor
until recently everything was begining to fall into place for me after a series of false starts on my life. i had some money in the bank, a steady job, finishing up college, i had some independence. then this happened...which has really derailed things for me once again, things have became very chaotic in my life, so much so, that this is just one of a number of problems (but it is both the biggest and the root cause of the others).
che
you're right about the misdemeanor, almost all of the time you don't have to report being convicted of one on a job application, it is felonies that you have to do that with. even when you report it, that doesn't necessarily disqualify you from employment (hence the please explain box).
though i may check in with the other lawyer, if he can fit me in.
AH
you can sue for court costs in a civil trial, but the majority of the time it doesn't apply in a criminial case like mine. so i can't recoup anything i'm out.
Lincoln
your way of thinking about this is very similar to mine. i want to believe that a jury would look dispassionately at the facts, but in my particular circumstances it would be quite possible for the prosecution to use emotion to sway the jury to find me guilty, and i think it would be very hard for my defense to do the same. i'd rather know exactly what will happen rather than risk it.
Dr Strangelove
according to my lawyer you are correct, he told me in 7 years my misdemeanor would automatically go off my record, and i could petition to purge it from my record in three.
Pekka
when i was first arrested it was truly depressing. About three week after the day from which the charges sprang, I came home from visiting my mom and there was a strange number on my caller id. I called the number and the answered the phone by saying "police office" and i said sorry wrong number but inside i was like OH F*CK!!! The next day I went into work three hours early because I needed to get off early for school. I had came in fifteen minutes late on my early time, but I ended up staying 40 minutes later than I was supposed to covering lunches and helping one particularly difficult customer. At like noon one of my managers came in and was insistant that I go back to the training room with her. I thought I was going to get b*tched at for being 15 minutes late. Instead as soon as I got off the floor two detectives were waiting on me. After they had patted me down, I asked if I could clock out, then the cuffed me and took me to the jail. I tried calling my best friend a number of times that night without any luck. Finally at 5am I got up with her, and told her what was going on. They were going to have to extradict me before I could post bond so I had no clue how long i'd be in jail. Later that day my mom showed up. I had told her that I'd come by and see her the previous night, but I never did. I usually follow through with what I say I'll do. When I didn't show up and didn't call she called me and got my voice mail a bunch of times. She had a bad feeling, so she drove to my house at 4am. I wasn't there. So she drove to my job at like 5am, and my car was still there. At 7am when the day shift came on, one of the managers told her to try the jail, because my mom thought I'd been kidnapped and killed. So at like 9am they told me I had a visitor and when I saw it was my mom I just wanted to run away because I felt so bad. I honestly thought she'd hate me. I guess where I was still alive, she took it all really well. The next day they extradicted me, and the cop doing the transport told me if I had of lived slightly further away it would have probably been too much of a hassle to come and get me. I posted bond that day, but because I was arrested at work and had to miss two day because I was in jail I resigned. I was in the process of moving anyways. After being arrest and charged, I really lost alot of self esteem, and dignity. I've recovered it and grown as a person. Though jail sucks. I was in a cell block built for 6 people but there were 9 and 10 of us in it. The shower only had two temperatures, scalding hot and freezing cold. I finally got a fresh change of clothes and some path products on the second day I was in there. I had to let the water run in my hand and splash it on me because it was too hot to actually stand under it. The floor of the shower was covered in a black mold like substance, I didn't want to find out what it was but at least it didn't give me athletes foot. I'm a vegetarian, and every meal was based around a meat product so I had to do lots of trading. The trustees were shady as hell, and couldn't make koolaid worth sh*t. Unfortunantly the water tasted really bad, so it was like 4 cups of koolaid a day. I saw some guy get a prison tat in there for 4 packs of marlboros. The cool thing was they had a ps2 in jail. So on the first night we watched blade 2, high crimes (with ashley judd), queen of the damned, and freddy got fingered. Freddy got fingered was so bad it almost caused a riot. On intake they couldn't believe I wasn't addicted to anything, and they kept on offering to give me medicine to deal with withdrawal. Most of the other prisoners took some kind of super tylenol thing at night the guards issued to "help them sleep" but apparently everybody got high off of it. I was actually politely asked to render unto this one guy in the cell block my allotment, but the guards didn't have enough to give me any. They'd stay up till 6am after they ate breakfast (served at 5:30am) then they'd fall asleep. I slept like an hour the whole time i was there. I didn't take a sh*t and as soon as I got home that was the first thing I did. Jail is certainly a very different place.
Last edited by korn469 on 12-05-2003 at 09:45
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:28
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korn, sounds like jail to me. I know what you mean. There was a mix up, since at the time I was in jail (for one day, 24 hours that is), there was a big drug bust, so they thought I was part of it, when my case was not related to it. The cop that talked to me knew it, but because others didn't (guards etc) I didn't get the best treatment possible. our jails are prolly the best in the world including Sweden and other scandinavia as in they're not that bad to be. So it wasn't horrible, but I was in cell that only was for me, no windows of course and it was pretty small. They had lights on for the 24 I was in it. I didn't know what time it is, and guards didn't tell me. Food sucked so bad I can't even believe it. When they got me in, I was first stripped down to my boxers and I had to be their half naked, until I got my fingerprints taken the next day the cop was like 'wtf, why don't you have any clothes man' and he went along and got my clothes.. it was really nice. It didn't seem like a trick to me, because I didn't see that cop after that. I was questioned for 6 hours straight. But it wasn't that hostile, the first cop thought my case was related to the big thing going on back then and I didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Naturally he didn't believe me, because these folks don't talk. Finally the cop who was supposed to ask me questions came in and after that it didn't take too long. I got some coffee and all that. I didn't want to call my mom, they asked me if I wanted to, to let my folks know. I was so embarrased I didn't want to. I was desperate to think up something to explain them. I couldn't sleep because cell next to me had some druggie in it who was screaming every once in a while, that was some weird **** I wanted to shout 'SHUT UP!' all the time but I couldn't. Even the guards were pissed off. Then at morning some guy they brought in for being way too drunk was told 'Oh good, you're wanted for this and this and we can't let you go, you're going to jail X' and then small fight broke up. I had absolutely nothing to do in my cell, white walls that had some writings in them like 'person X jailed and to be charged for manslaughter', what a moral booster! It was my dads birthday too, I got back looking like ****, like I've been up 24 hours and in jail, to the party. I told them that I was in jail though.. Though I don't believe what I did was serious, I still downplayed it to my folks because they wouldn't think it like I thought, they would have thought I was a dirty druggie with death wish and all that. Anything but that I wished.. anything.. like good old battery or something. It was bad because I was shown some mugshots and I told I haven't ever seen these guys, but then the cop said 'yeah, but one of these knows you and he said so today'.. I was like wtf.. but you know they were just playing with the cops, fortunately they didn't start to lay down their wrongdoings with the stranger .
Then few weeks later the cops called me and my mom was like 'I think it's a cop' and I was like F#¤&%! What do they want from me? They wanted me to drop by and I did, I was scared I just hoped I never smoked any pot.
But it wasn't bad, they didn't put me to jail, I got coffee and danish to eat and I was in some cops office that was quite nice, and he was good to me and apologized for the mix up with the guards and others, and told I could complain about it, but I thought I don't want to do anything more, I just want to get this over with. I don't have any grudge with the cops or anything, but for a year or two after that my stomach always turned when I saw cops in the streets. Now I don't get that and everything is normal, but it was bad back then.
I was pretty young then and I couldn't handle it, because I thought what if they don't believe me that I have nothing to do with the other people in there, or that I didn't know them.. what if they charge me anyway for some things I haven't heard about and what if it goes through and I have to go to prison? What then? It has happened, so what makes me so special that justice wins and truth comes out? So, as I said it wasn't anything serious but I managed to escalate it in my head when I was in all white room for 24 hours and nothing to do except worry.
You know the worst ideas came to my head like 'these other guys will blame everything on me' because they were asked questions about me if they knew me etc..What then? The cops would start drilling me and the criminals would pressure me and worst case scenarios in my head ended up with them killing me in the streets.
Last edited by Pekka on 12-05-2003 at 10:53
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
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Indictment by grand jury is no big deal as an indicator of if/how well you'll do at trial. A grand jury only considers what the prosecution brings, so it's a one sided, minimal view to see if there's enough to even charge you.
Indicting you on a lot of counts is also generally (unless you really got caught with your hands in a lot of cookie jars) a tactic to lead into plea bargain. "We've got maybe one low end charge we can stick him with, and maybe, just maybe, we'll sell the jury on one or two more, if we're lucky. Let's see if we can find a way to charge him with half a dozen things, and plea him down to two. That's better than we know we could get at trial."
What you have to consider is what kind of jury pool are you likely to draw in your county, and how do you think you'd be seen by them? How is the prosecutor usually perceived by them? The problem with all trials, civil or criminal, is that unless the case is open and shut, one way or another, you're gambling on human psychology, so you have to have a good idea about the humans you're gambling your life on.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:28
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Pekka
the first jurisdiction i was in didn't question me at all, because they were simply waiting to extradict me, though when i went into the only open court to sign the extradiction waiver it was juvenile court, and one of my coworkers was there with her kids. so here i come in an orange jump suit with ankle chains on, she was like "how are you" and all i could think of saying was "i'm good all things considered" then just kinda smiled...i heard pink's song just like a pill a number of times in jail so every time i hear it now i think of being locked up, though considering that i hadn't watched tv in like a month when they had locked me up in some was it wasn't that bad, lay on a little tiny mat in a crowded floor on a concrete floor and watch tv in like a 90 degree room, then eat three times a day. the second cell i was in was alot like the cell you were in. one guy had carved in big letters across the top of the door "me against the world" i sat in there by myself for like 2 hours, just waiting on the bailbond to arrive. one absurd thing was they had to handcuff me in front of my body instead of behind as they escorted me to be released on bail...i had a talk with the guard about how stupid a person would have to be to try to escape when they going to be released, he agreed, he thought they should either have to handcuff a person correctly or not handcuff them at all
MtG
the county i'm charged with a crime in is one of the poorest counties in all of the US, and it is a rural coalmining based county in the bible belt part of the rural appalachians, and i'm an outsider. which couldn't help my case. you're right about them tossing out as many charges as possible. one of them is the most ludacris charges i've ever heard of in my entire life. if it wouldn't send me to prison i'd just laugh about it. i did an online search of everything, and i couldn't even find it in the code book unlike the rest of the charges. i know they couldn't have made it up, but it almost seems like they did.
as far as perceptions about either me or the prosecutor i'm not sure. i don't really know what kind of jury pool we'd draw, and my lawyer really hasn't talked about jury selection with me yet. we signed the original plea bargin back in october, and they said they either accept it or drop the case, and now all of these months later, here we are.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:28
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korn, yep.. It was nerving, I didn't see anyone there, I only heard them. Everytime they walked to the questioning room, they made sure no one was there, and that I didn't see what time it was. This was before the mix up got cleared, after that it wasn't bad at all and everyone was pretty cool. But before that, it's bad, I didn't know how long I have to be there, they were convincing that I was going to be there for 3 days and then held for the hold investigation which in their own words was going to take more than 4 months. In that small cell with nothing to do. 1 hour per day exercise and that's it, back to my own little white cell. I would have climbed the walls.. the cop even called to the one who was leading the investigation, I was really nervous because they were asking that I could be held there longer, as long as it takes. Fortunately the leader said No and that was the point where the mix up cleared when they were like who do we have here, no we're not after this guy. I had to pee in the midst of 6 hours straight questionings, and the cop followed me to the bahtroom and stood right next to me, as if I was going to do something. It was humiliating, I was only down to my boxers, like I had a gun in my butt that I was trying to hide there and throw it to toilet.. It was saturday also and the cop came and said 'well I'm off to my weekend, see you next week, also it's a bit hard to find a lawyer this time, maybe you'll get one day over tomorrow'.. Yeah! Moral booster! But I'm glad everything cleared out soon after that...
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Cruddy
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All I can say is, if it was me, I would contest it, even beyond the point where I got locked up. No way am I going to plead guilty to something I didn't do.
You can be better than your reputation. But you can never be better than your principles.
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Elden
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Fight it to the end
If you fail then three little words for you:
FLEE THE COUNTRY !!!
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Rogan Josh
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My advice would be to never admit to anything you didn't do. Only plea bargin if you are actually guilty - if you aren't guilty, fight it out to the bitter end. I mean this as a point of principle. It is wrong to say you did something you didn't do, so don't let them make you say it.
I know it is easy for us to sit here and ague principles - we are not the ones facing the charges, but I hope that is what I would do in the circumstances. I feel rather strongly about this sort of thing, so I would stand and fight.
Don't let the system make you something you are not.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:28
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Oerdin
i've already had an arraignment hearing and plead not guilty at it, my next court date is less than two weeks away, and it is the last day before the trial (if there is one) starts. they'd hammer out any unresolved issues, and decide on the rules for jury selection, and possibly select a jury on that day, though i'm unsure. the plea bargin came from the original prosecutor, we signed the plea deal with him, and the verbal agreement was for either the prosecution to accept the plea or drop charges. Since they were supposed to accept the plea in january, when january came and went i assumed as per the agreement they'd decided to drop charges. Then at the very end of feburary, i'm indicted on a number of new charges (originally it was only one felony charge, and that was all) when we went to court in march my lawyer was still confident that they'd still accept the original plea he'd worked out with the old prosecutor. Now it's May and they still haven't accepted the plea, nor dropped charges, or even offered some kind of new plea so it looks like they want to take it to court, but i'll know for sure in a few days.
Imran
It doesn't involve drugs, though i was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
One of my biggest problem is that this is in a different jurisdiction than the one i live in. I called many of the local lawyers but they weren't able to give me any advice but one did give me a recommendation for my current lawyer (and a few others that we contacted but just didn't like), in fact my current lawyer has an office that is like an hour and a half from my new house, and the actual courthouse is three hour drive (each way) from my house, so each time I have to appear in court it eats up my entire day
Imran i do have a question that maybe you can answer, how long does an average noncapital criminal trial last? neither side has that much evidence
Elden
lol i've always wanted to visit europe, maybe spiffor could take me in 
but nah, no matter what happens i'm not going to flee, plus i'm still optimistic on my chances
Cruddy & Rogan Josh
i guess my thing is that i could care less about my reputation being tarnished than time, money, and freedom...one of my good friends (a super straightlaced kid from the wealthy suburbs of alexandria virginia) who actually works for a subcontractor of the FBI now had a misdemeanor on his record (assault with a missile) because he threw a penny out of his car window and it struck an unmarked police car behind him, so having this wouldn't completely soil my reputation, it's not like i'm pleading guilty to being a murder (it's like criminal criminal mischief or something)...i don't really care that much if i do get a misdemeanor if no jailtime comeswith it. However, if i was actually facing a loss of freedom i'd fight to the bitter end and if the prosecution doesn't cooperate i'll have to fight for my freedom regardless (though with summer school, work and everything, that'd be a major headache). It's alot easier to just move on and accept what's convienent than it is to always stand for principles, or at least that's what i've found in all of this.
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Cruddy
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Well, good luck with it. It's your call and it's not my money being spent on lawyers. I've always taken the path of greatest resistance - not because I enjoyed it, but because it seemed the right, the only thing to do.
If I had a lot to lose that might change my attitude. I would like to think not though... I've lost out on a lot of material gain in my life due to my principles, but I wouldn't change a thing.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:28
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Cruddy
thanks! while money is a big concern in this, if it comes down to spending money to maintain my freedom i will...i'd rather be broke for 2 years than be in jail for any lengthy amount of time at all, freedom is worth it trust me it is. My main concern though, is there is the possibility i could lose on at least one of the misdemeanor charges (like i said they do have some circumstantial evidence, and while it's not that strong, i don't want to risk it) if it goes to trial. Without the terms of the plea bargin i could face jail time, i'm not sure if since i'd be a first time offender if i'd get any, but i could, whereas with the plea i know i don't. That was what made me decided to go along with this (along with it being cheaper, and saving me from having to spend a large amount of time on it which i don't have), but the new prosecutor may have other ideas, he could be looking to prove himself, and i could be the first person in his sights. If so, we'll see how well the system works. I am thankful though that in America we do have the Constitution to protect people's rights, it really becomes special when it's your rights that it's protecting.
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12-05-2003 05:21
ACK!
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