28-05-2003 23:23									#241
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In the US, we put 25 year-old women having sex with minors in jail.

	29-05-2003 00:33									#242
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the US, we put 25 year-old women having sex with minors in jail.

OK Che.

Lets say I'm a normal healthy sixteen year old who gets an offer from an attractive 25 year old woman, say an attractive famous actress, and has sex with her.

How in their right mind can anyone call something like this abuse? In this case it wouldn't be voluntary on my part, but hyper-voluntary.

Presumably, you have been a sixteen year old male and know that it's extremely difficult to think of anything else but attractive women at that age.

	29-05-2003 00:40									#243
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The consequences of a girl having sex and a boy having sex are indeed totally different in our society.

But generally, I have my feelings mixed about what korn did. . the 4 years rule seems great, and what you did is against the law.

	29-05-2003 00:52									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The consequences of a girl having sex and a boy having sex are indeed totally different in our society.

Here's an experiment that should be conducted.

Place a plain looking woman by the side of the road with a sign around her neck saying "Will have sex with any man."

In another location place a plain looking man by the side of the road with a sign saying "Will have sex with any woman".

I'm betting the woman will be picked up within about, say, three or four seconds.

The bloke will be there until the cows come home.

	29-05-2003 00:53									#245
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And your point is?

-Arrian

	29-05-2003 01:33									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian And your point is?

The rules for men and women shouldn't be the same when there is such an obvious difference.

	29-05-2003 03:01									#247
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Well, if we are discussing the US (where korn is from)... it'd be unconstitutional to have one rule on this for women and one for men. The classification wouldn't be ruled to be substantially tied to the important governmental interest of preventing psychological harm to young women (based on prior precedent).

That, and I think the rules should be the same .

	29-05-2003 03:09									#248
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the US, we put 25 year-old women having sex with minors in jail.

In the US, just about anyone who deviates from the norm is put in jail.

That's why I don't understand why you call it the land of free.

I've got more freedom in my little finger down here in Australia.

	29-05-2003 03:13									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well, if we are discussing the US (where korn is from)... it'd be unconstitutional to have one rule on this for women and one for men. The classification wouldn't be ruled to be substantially tied to the important governmental interest of preventing psychological harm to young women (based on prior precedent). That, and I think the rules should be the same .

That's absurd. It's like saying that a public health system should provide cervical examinations for both sexes. If there is a real difference then a sensible law should reflect that. One big difference that hasn't been mentioned is that the consequences of sexual activity for women are more pressing than those for men - it is after all women who get pregnant and suffer the concomitant health problems associated with it.

	29-05-2003 03:16									#250
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quote: That's absurd. It's like saying that a public health system should provide cervical examinations for both sexes. If there is a real difference then a sensible law should reflect that. One big difference that hasn't been mentioned is that the consequences of sexual activity for women are more pressing than those for men - it is after all women who get pregnant and suffer the concomitant health problems associated with it.

But there ISN'T a real difference. Both genders can easily suffer psychological problems from being with a person who is sufficiently older, no matter the gender. Even guys don't like being used.

Can you tell me where the real difference is? Just because men seem to be more piggish about sex than women, historically, isn't good enough.

	29-05-2003 03:17									#251
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Tell Menem that.. he is 72.. and he has a wife who is in the mid 30s. Now is there something wrong with that picture?

	29-05-2003 03:33									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But there ISN'T a real difference. Both genders can easily suffer psychological problems from being with a person who is sufficiently older, no matter the gender. Even guys don't like being used. Can you tell me where the real difference is? Just because men seem to be more piggish about sex than women, historically, isn't good enough.

Of course there is a real difference. The rate of sexual exploitation of minors by men is far greater than the sexual exploitation of minors by women. In many of the latter cases it is the male who initiates the activity. It is also the case that most 14-16 year old males would relaish the opportunity to copulate with an attractive older woman (or with one their own age for that matter). As I said above, if an attractive woman in her mid twenties had wanted to use me for meaningless sex when I was 16 I would have thought I'd died and gone to heaven. While it's true that both genders can suffer from being with older people, females tend to suffer more. Presumably there is some psychological basis for this.

Tell me, in your city is there a problem with 40ish women cruising the streets in cars looking for 14 year old girls to abuse?

	29-05-2003 03:34									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Tell Menem that.. he is 72.. and he has a wife who is in the mid 30s. Now is there something wrong with that picture?

I think it's disgraceful, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal.

	29-05-2003 03:36									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I think it's disgraceful, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal.

Even in the US it isn't illegal. But we all know it isn't for love.. this model just married Menem for the power and money. I know her.. she tried dating Alberto Fujimori before.

	29-05-2003 03:37									#255
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Sorry for the parsing... but I'm a little pressed for time .

quote: The rate of sexual exploitation of minors by men is far greater than the sexual exploitation of minors by women.

Just because the rate is greater for the former doesn't mean the latter does not exist.

quote: It is also the case that most 14-16 year old males would relaish the opportunity to copulate with an attractive older woman

You don't think the 14-16 year old females relish having a relationship with an attractive older man? Or do you think they are forced into it.

quote: While it's true that both genders can suffer from being with older people, females tend to suffer more.

Again... you admit that younger males can also suffer harm from relationships to older females. Just because it is less common than the other way around does not mean we should just ignore it.

quote: Tell me, in your city is there a problem with 40ish women cruising the streets in cars looking for 14 year old girls to abuse?

No... but then again there isn't a problem in my town with 40ish men cruising the streets looking for 14 year old girls either.

	29-05-2003 03:40									#256
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It is illegal not because it's a "deviation from the norm" (referring to child abuse here, not the above post ) but because a minor is not deemed responsible enough to make a decision on his or her own, and is vulnerable to coercion.

	29-05-2003 03:58									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse In the US, just about anyone who deviates from the norm is put in jail. That's why I don't understand why you call it the land of free. I've got more freedom in my little finger down here in Australia.

Speaking of which, the age of concent in Australia was reduced for both hetro and homo to (I think) 16 years.

	29-05-2003 03:59									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Sorry for the parsing... but I'm a little pressed for time .

Fair enough.

quote: quote: The rate of sexual exploitation of minors by men is far greater than the sexual exploitation of minors by women. Just because the rate is greater for the former doesn't mean the latter does not exist.

I'm not saying that it doesn't (although the difference is huge). I'm also not saying that it is impossible for males to be harmed by sexual relationships with older women. What I am saying is that there is a psychological difference between the sexes such that the effects on females are as a general rule worse. There is a tendency to assume, without further investigation, that if there is a relationship between an older woman and a teenage boy, that it must be bad because almost all of the relationships between older men and teenage girls are bad. This simply isn't true.

quote: quote: It is also the case that most 14-16 year old males would relaish the opportunity to copulate with an attractive older woman You don't think the 14-16 year old females relish having a relationship with an attractive older man? Or do you think they are forced into it.

I don't think they do in the same way. I remember seeing a middle aged woman interviewed who'd been having sex with her teenage son's friend. His other friends blackmailed her into having sex with them by threatening to report her to the police. At the end there were gangs of teenage boys at her house waiting to have a go at her. I can't recall anything like this ever happening with a man.

quote: quote: While it's true that both genders can suffer from being with older people, females tend to suffer more. Again... you admit that younger males can also suffer harm from relationships to older females. Just because it is less common than the other way around does not mean we should just ignore it.

That's not what I'm saying. My claim is that it isn't fair to deprive teenage boys of enjoying sex because it harms somebody else. The law should be changed to target abusive relationships rather than all of them. As it stands the law just seems to reflect the squeamishness that adults feel about teenage sexuality.

quote: quote: Tell me, in your city is there a problem with 40ish women cruising the streets in cars looking for 14 year old girls to abuse? No... but then again there isn't a problem in my town with 40ish men cruising the streets looking for 14 year old girls either.

Strange city.

	29-05-2003 04:00									#259
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker It is illegal not because it's a "deviation from the norm" (referring to child abuse here, not the above post ) but because a minor is not deemed responsible enough to make a decision on his or her own, and is vulnerable to coercion.

Yeah, but how many 16 year old boys would need to be coerced into sleeping with an attractive older woman?

Would you?

	29-05-2003 04:05									#260
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The point is, you aren't deemed capable of making the decision.

Now, nasty example, but how many REALLY little kids would resist being molested? If they don't understand what's happening, they aren't being coerced, are they?

quote: it isn't fair to deprive teenage boys of enjoying sex

I nominate this for funniest quote of the century

	29-05-2003 04:16									#261
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker The point is, you aren't deemed capable of making the decision. Now, nasty example, but how many REALLY little kids would resist being molested? If they don't understand what's happening, they aren't being coerced, are they?

I'm not talking about small children. Basically, the issues here are what the age of consent should be (18 is just too high) and whether we should recognise some difference between the effects of relationships with older people on males and females (I think we should as a general rule)

quote: I nominate this for funniest quote of the century

Excellent.

Serendipitously, there's a program about Mary Kay LeTourneau on A&E at 8pm tonight.

	29-05-2003 04:19									#262
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Umm, I think you need to fix the quote

If you think the age of consent is too high, than that may be the case. I was saying that there did need to be an age of consent, and that just because the 16 year old want to do it, doesn't mean that they should be allowed to.

	29-05-2003 04:27									#263
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Umm, I think you need to fix the quote

Ah - bollocks!

quote: If you think the age of consent is too high, than that may be the case. I was saying that there did need to be an age of consent, and that just because the 16 year old want to do it, doesn't mean that they should be allowed to.

Agreed. I just think that Korn was treated very badly by an unjust law. All for the crime of wanting to get his end away with a pretty girl he really liked; and all because he lives in an area that is paleoconservative about sex.

	29-05-2003 04:31									#264
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If I ran the world:

Age of consent = whenever they consented

Age to drink = whenever they could afford it

Age to drive = as soon as they learned to hold their alcohol

Age to die for your country = as soon as they could hold a gun

Age to vote = What? Never. I am running the sheiT



Deal is, you break the rules, you pay the price. I feel for Korn, I've been hornig once or twice before , but I am sure he new the rules... It ain't so much about the rules be lame, which in this case they are, but more so about Korn have a lapse of judgement...

	29-05-2003 05:38									#265
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I'm to lazy to look through 18 pages of posts. How old did the girl turn out to be?

	29-05-2003 05:43									#266
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quote: it isn't fair to deprive teenage boys of enjoying sex

So many people are talking about us here... lol....

	29-05-2003 05:44									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm to lazy to look through 18 pages of posts. How old did the girl turn out to be?

36.



ACK!

	29-05-2003 06:26									#268
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quote: What I am saying is that there is a psychological difference between the sexes such that the effects on females are as a general rule worse. There is a tendency to assume, without further investigation, that if there is a relationship between an older woman and a teenage boy, that it must be bad because almost all of the relationships between older men and teenage girls are bad. This simply isn't true.

You can extend that, if you want, to say that there is a tendancy to assume if there is a relationship between and older man and a teenage woman, then it must be bad because a substantial number of older man and teenage woman relationships are bad for the woman.

MANY laws are overinclusive. If you say that teenage females are psychologically harmed by this type of relationship, and then some (but not the same number of) teenage males are as well, it would be strange ONLY to have this 4 year law for females. A law that has statutory rape being 'males who have sex with a female who is younger than 4 years of age of him' wouldn't survive. It's violate 'Equal Protection Under the Laws'. Even though females might suffer MORE psychologically, so do some males. A law simply to protect teenage females would also be overinclusive... however, certain people believe the psychological problems and the fact that legally you aren't of an age which you can be rationally capable of making a decision.

I don't favor seperate laws for males and females. If you are older than 4 years of age than your mate, and she, or her parents, decide to report it, you should get some punishment.

I also believe the Age of Consent (where the other person's age doesn't matter) should be 18... the age where you become a full legal person.

	29-05-2003 06:47									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You can extend that, if you want, to say that there is a tendancy to assume if there is a relationship between and older man and a teenage woman, then it must be bad because a substantial number of older man and teenage woman relationships are bad for the woman.

I'm not extending it. I'm just suggesting that the current criteria are silly.

quote: MANY laws are overinclusive. If you say that teenage females are psychologically harmed by this type of relationship, and then some (but not the same number of) teenage males are as well, it would be strange ONLY to have this 4 year law for females. A law that has statutory rape being 'males who have sex with a female who is younger than 4 years of age of him' wouldn't survive. It's violate 'Equal Protection Under the Laws'. Even though females might suffer MORE psychologically, so do some males. A law simply to protect teenage females would also be overinclusive... however, certain people believe the psychological problems and the fact that legally you aren't of an age which you can be rationally capable of making a decision.

The best way to deal with this is to give the police some discretion. What usually happens is that the police will only prosecute a stat case if there are some aggravating factors (like one party being much older than the other or evidence that some kind of coercion has occurred or evidence that the younger party is particularly immature).

	29-05-2003 07:04									#270
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quote: The best way to deal with this is to give the police some discretion.

Um.... where are you from? The police ALWAYS have discretion . If they don't think it's bad, they can always look the other way.

OTOH, when a parent calls, there is always the threat of some sort of violence between the parent and the guy, so the police have to show up. Whether they arrest the guy or not, is their own perogative.