27-05-2003 03:11									#211
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quote: Why they need laws for that?

Because of psychological harm that results from 15 year olds going with 30 year olds. It is said that they can't really make a voluntary choice in that matter. It's a 'nanny state' rule... the kind that you in Finland should know .

	27-05-2003 03:14									#212
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Parents could emphasize that they should have feelings first. Dad will always think guys are only after sex because they know it, they're men too! They're only oppressing younger guys, that's unfair! j/k

I believe girls want to have sex, or make love, first time being someone they have feelings for and all that crap.
Guys most of the times at that age just want to have sex. So there's a little conflict for sure.

For example, you find out she's going out with a guy. So you invite them and make it easy for them and not promise to kill the guy when you have little mano a mano. When they go out for a while and you get to know the guy and that he really likes your daughter, why not allow some sleep overs in the same room and bed.. not when they're 12, but when they're like 15 or so. It's safe and you know there's not going to be 12 drunk guys standing in line waiting for their turn.
Moms talk with the daughters better, so they know if they have real feelings, so you can be sure too that it's not going to be horrible experience and that it can be a good thing. When you hear the guy dumping your kid the next day, that's when you jump into your pick up, drive to school and get him out of his class while everyone is staring their mouths open and beat the living crap out of him in the yard.

	27-05-2003 03:17									#213
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quote: why not allow some sleep overs in the same room and bed.. not when they're 12, but when they're like 15 or so. It's safe and you know there's not going to be 12 drunk guys standing in line waiting for their turn.

It is one thing to talk to your daughters about sex, but actually promote it? I wouldn't want to do that! Let them do it in secret... that would send the signal, at least, that you don't approve of her having sex at that age.

	27-05-2003 03:18									#214
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Imram, well to be honest, I really don't know any relationships of those ages, or sex relationships of that age either. I'm sure it happens, but then again I'm sure it happens in the US too, with law or no law.

And I'm all for the house rules. Parents set the rules of the house, when they're underaged and live there. They should be respected, and there is a problem already if they're not respected. You can be reasonable with it, but the law is not changing what's going to happen.
And for sure I would not tolerate 30 year old guy in my house. But that's between my family and me, and then between me and the other guy.

	27-05-2003 03:20									#215
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Imram, you got me wrong.. when they ask for permission to sleep together, they have obviously had sex for some time already. I'd consult the mom with this and ask if she thinks it's ok and if they're for real, and if green light, I wouldn't oppose. I would not say 'hey big boy wanna stay a night? Grab a beer, let's watch some football and then you can go upstairs with my daughter'.. that's not what I meant

	27-05-2003 03:22									#216
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quote: when they ask for permission to sleep together, they have obviously had sex for some time already. I'd consult the mom with this and ask if she thinks it's ok and if they're for real, and if green light, I wouldn't oppose.

STILL!

No! No! No! If they want to have sex, I'm not going to allow them to use the house, as if I approve.

	27-05-2003 03:25									#217
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Imram, yeah, but that's ok. You set the rules in your house. That's perfeclty respectable. I might change my mind if and when I have a daughter. There's nothing wrong with not letting the guy sleep under your roof, if you don't like the idea.

	27-05-2003 03:26									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka why not allow some sleep overs in the same room and bed... when they're like 15 or so.

I did that with several of my girlfriends who were 16-17 when I was 18-19. Their parents had no problem with that. Perhaps beacuase I'm such a nice guy? One of those girlfriends is still my wife.

	27-05-2003 03:29									#219
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Besides, me allowing some weirdo sleep in my house with my daughter would mean green light from the mom, meaning they are good couple, and that they've been going out for longer than few weeks, AND that I like the guy myself. Well, making it shorter, I wouldn't say NO with 100% certainty. Closer to 70-80% NO, but if it feels ok, and everyone else is up for it, I consider there's a possiblitiy of me saying it's ok.

If I had a son, it would be different. I'd let him have all the chicks he can score in my house. Hell, I'd even do high fives with him and give him respect!

Well.. not really. I think it's a bit two faced, that I'd let a girl stay easier than a guy..

	27-05-2003 03:33									#220
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Olaf, well basically all of my buddies at that age (16-19) slept in the girls house with their parents acceptance.
When I had my 18th birthday and got too drunk, I woke in some girls bedroom and the parents were in there, watching TV. I thought I need to sneak out, but they were cool about, though I didn't even know the girl. I was surprised a little. But nothing to boast about really, apparently I was too drunk to .. perform anyway.

It's perfectly normal here. I mean that if a couple goes out, that the parents are not opposing sleeping under their roof. But usually they have gone out for a little while before they even introduce or have the guts to do that .

	27-05-2003 03:49									#221
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When I lived in Turkku, one of my buddies (24 YO) got a little too drunk in the sauna and forgot to put on his underwear when we left. Then there was a 1st year female student (19 YO) who tried to seduce him, which was easy . She brought him home to let him sleep on her sofa, as this was their first night and he was to drunk to perfom anyway, but imagine his embarrassment when she helped him remove his pants and found out he wore no underwear.

	27-05-2003 03:53									#222
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I hope he was drunk enough not to mind about it, and later on not remembering it! But then again you're telling the story, so he wasn't that lucky

	27-05-2003 04:33									#223
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On the average there is a huge difference between a 16 year old girl and a 19 year old girl physiologically. Namely the last burst of brain development occurs (for most) during those years between, which turns girls into women in the mental as well as physical sense. For guys it usually happens 1 to 2 years later. Thus IMO girls of 16 are very rarely capable of exhibiting the sort of judgement we expect of adults, while women of 19 usually are at least capable of it, even if they don't always make the best choices either.

This is one reason why so many relationships which start at these ages so often end up going wrong. The people literally grow out of the relationship. It happened to my parents, my mother was 17 when they got married while my father was 22. My mother was a wunderkind, enrolled at the University at 16 years old. She still lived with her abusive parents, and wanted out of there badly. My dad was an engineering nerd, and they hooked up and got married 9 months after they met. I'm sure my mom seemed very mature in ways, she was used to playing an adult role to fill in the gaps of her own family. But in some very important ways she had merely postponed her own development, skipping whole developmental phases by necessity. The problem is that eventually you have to go through those phases of life in order to be mentally healthy and capable of being a responsible adult. And the development is much harder to accomplish out of sequence and outside the normal developmental window. My dad had no idea what he was in for, all he knew was that he had a smokingly hot 17 year old girl who was infatuated with him, and it was the best thing he had ever experienced. (I'm the same sort of idiot, thankfully with a bit more wisdom than the old man.)

Their relationship started coming apart within a few years, though they didn't split up finally for 10 years. There were numerous breakdowns, suicide attempts and infidelities before then. My sister and I grew up in the midst of that sh!t, and more or less made our own way from the time I was about 9 years old. I was the parent, she was the child, and my parents chucked in some money now and again. Neither one was really capable of parenting, my mother had custody and managed to work while she continued her education, my father married again and moved away.

This stuff can have serious consequences! Keep in mind that none of what happened with my parents was illegal, and no one tried to interfere. Yet the thing was fubar from the beginning. While I agree that the law should be a last resort, we can't rely entirely on the assumption that parents will do their jobs properly. Many parents (especially young single mothers who themselves were abused) will not only fail to protect their children from serial abusers, they will often encourage the relationship actively or passively. They won't see it as abuse because they still haven't come to terms with their own abuse. The law needs to have a way to protect those children that no one else will.

	27-05-2003 04:35									#224
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I can see from reading through this thread that I need to keep my shot gun loaded. My eldest daughter is turning 15

	27-05-2003 04:36									#225
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, we're older, and we know why 9 times out of ten a much older man goes out with a teenage girl, because he can't relate to women his own age. Sikander was spot on. Theben and I very nearly decided to go have a "talk" with one guy, who was 27, who was dating our 18 year-old sister. We let it slide, because, knowing our sister, she wasn't gonna be interested in him for very long, and she wasn't. Sikander's post was short, sweet, and too the point, so there's no reason for me to expand upon it. Any man who thinks a child is his soul-mate has serious problems. He needs to get help to understand and overcome why he feels he can connect on such a level with someone who hasn't experienced life yet.

Hey Commie you sound pretty "rightish/conservative" in that situation.

	27-05-2003 04:38									#226
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Bunnygrrl had a good message to keep her sister from having sex too early. She told her simply that young guys don't know what they're doing yet, so why bother, and men who are trying to date you can't be trusted. It worked.

I am not opposed to teens having sex. I just don't believe they should be having sex with adults. Teens should have sex with teens, adults should have sex with adults.

	27-05-2003 04:43									#227
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I am not opposed to teens having sex. I just don't believe they should be having sex with adults. Teens should have sex with teens, adults should have sex with adults.

I agree (let's hope they wait until they are 16 or so though). I tend to support the 4 year rule for minors, as it allows them to date their peers (ie the people in their school) while it keeps most of the worst predators in legal jeopardy.

	27-05-2003 04:44									#228
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quote: I can see from reading through this thread that I need to keep my shot gun loaded. My eldest daughter is turning 15

quote: am not opposed to teens having sex. I just don't believe they should be having sex with adults. Teens should have sex with teens, adults should have sex with adults.

Don't let adults prey on teens' immaturity.

	27-05-2003 04:44									#229
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I agree. Teens with teens

	27-05-2003 04:53									#230
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S. Kroeze

I guess the reason why I'm happy is things could have turned out worse. The only thing is that we misjudged her parents reaction if they ever woke up and found her missing. She's snuck out before she'd met me, and she said that her parents hadn't ever done anything but yell at her when she got home. Little did we know they were going to form a posse. As far as her parents being puritanical, that's not really the case at all. It's more like the go from one extreme (too much freedom) to the other (being far too over protective). I know I made some mistakes in all of this, but I don't think the police being involved have made this situation any better. Certainly the police never considered what her wishes were.

quote: korn, well, if world gets blown up and you get to choose who comes with you from your gf's family, dad or mom, I think the choice is obvious. That'll teach her

Pekka

lol! that's hilarious

Olaf

i don't think her mom is going to change, but who knows

quote: Perhaps not... but it can't be good for the 15 year old, at least psychologically

Imran's quote is one of the things I've had a large amount of time to ponder, and it is one of the biggest problems with the basis of the age of consent law

the way I see it sex carries three main negatives: pregnancy, STDs, and emotional trauma. However, none of these things are illegal in any other context. If two adults, or two minors, or even an adult and a minor in certain circumstances (cases where the age of consent has some elasticity and allows certain adults to have sex with certain minors) have sex and the female gets pregnant, while it might be problematic, it isn't illegal. Many people will point to the fact that a large number of teenage pregnancies are by men in their 20's, but to me this isn't a proper justification of the law. Older women can't sleep with teenage boys, nor can older homosexuals (of either sex) have sex. Also birth control when properly used seperates sex and pregnancy to a large degree, far more than what it was when many of these laws were originally enacted. The reason that many say pregnancy is bad is because the teenage mother and her children will become a burden on society, yet not all teenage mothers seek out support from the government, nor is it illegal for adult mothers to seek out support from society. Instead of being illegal, the government offers things such as WiC to help feed children of needy mothers. Even if some kind of minority report system existed that prevented all violations of age of consent, teenage boys would still exist and they could still impregnant girls under the age of consent. So trying to use the age of consent laws as some kind of teenage pregnancy prevention law is a rather bad policy; however, this is what the justification the Supreme Court used when it upheld age of consent laws.

Unknowingly passing an STDs isn't a crime afaik, and again, teenage are just as capable of passing STDs to other teenagers as what people over the age of consent are.

This brings us to the emotional trauma argument. It is perfectly legal for an adult man to lie, manipulate, and inflict as much emotional trauma on his partner (as long as they aren't married) as he wishes. It is also legal for a minor/person under the age of consent to do the same. Only when it is somebody over the age of the consent with somebody under it does this emotional trauma become illegal. However, unlike an assault or a murder charge, there doesn't have to be any harm to exist in the form of pregnancy, STD, or emotional trauma for a person to be guilty of statutory. All that matters is that one person is under an arbitraily selected age, and the other is over that age. As I mentioned before this allows in some circumstances certain adults to have sex with minors.

For example lets say the age of consent is 16. At 16 a person in their particular jurisdiction can legally consent, and according to the law as long as a person isn't more than three years older than them that is legal as well. You have two best friends, one is 15 and one is 15 1/2. They know two people of the opposite sex, who are 18 1/2. If the person who was 15 dated one of the 18 1/2 year olds for six months then they had sex with would be illegal. However, if the 15 1/2 year old met the other 18 1/2 year old and they had sex on the first night it would be legal.

I gotta run some errands but i'll continue this tommorrow...

	27-05-2003 04:57									#231
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The reason there are age of consent laws is because a teen at 16 is still legally under the control of her parents. Until she reaches the age of majority, her parents are her legal guardians. That is the main reason for the age of consent. Parents, who still have control of their kids, don't want you messing with them.

Maybe in other contexts what is trying to prevent is legal, but in this context it is illegal. It is an exception to the law.

	27-05-2003 05:29									#232
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None of my business

	27-05-2003 05:31									#233
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quote: Older women can't sleep with teenage boys, nor can older homosexuals (of either sex) have sex.

Bingo and besides most gay teens probably want another gay teen their age.. Well that is who I have..

I can't speak for straight/gay girls or straight guys however.

	27-05-2003 05:50									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The reason there are age of consent laws is because a teen at 16 is still legally under the control of her parents.

Age of consent in Australia is 16 for heterosexuals and 18 for homosexuals in most states. There is pressure to lower the homosexual age to 16 but this is being resisted.

I can see the advantages for parents of an 18 limit. But its not very realistic for the throbbing kiddies.

Romeo and Juliet were 14 or 15.

	27-05-2003 05:54									#235
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quote: I can see the advantages for parents of an 18 limit. But its not very realistic for the throbbing kiddies.

It's not really a hard limit (no pun intended) in most states. Basically, in most states, you can have sex if your partner is within four years of age of you. 18 is when you can have sex with someone no matter what the age.

It is very, very rare that an age of consent rule of 18 is strictly enforced when the guy is 18 and the girl is 17. However, if the girl is 17 and the guy 25, then that's basically enforced all the time.

	27-05-2003 06:14									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It's not really a hard limit (no pun intended)

	27-05-2003 06:16									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Romeo and Juliet were 14 or 15.

And look what happened to them. I rest my case.

	27-05-2003 06:33									#238
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I say let the teens fumble around with their own age.

The sad part is with all the porn around its hard to imagine kids being kids about these things any more

	28-05-2003 18:02									#239
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A question for all those puritanical hypocrites:

What would have happened when a boy, 16 years old, of his own free will would have had sex with a woman of 25 in a car at night, while the parents of the boy didn't know about it?

My guess is that most parents of this boy would be proud about it, especially when the woman was attractive!
No one would speculate about 'emotional trauma' of their son...

About Romeo and Juliet:
This love affair ended in tragedy not as a result of the age of the lovers, but because the families of the lovers didn't respect the individual feelings and decisions of their children; they treated them as pawns in their struggle for power. As a result the lovers were forced to marry in secret with disastrous consequences.
Obviously those parents did hardly love their own children.

The same applies for the parents of Korn's girlfriend.
Yes, I can understand they were upset when they discovered she had disappeared from the house. I also understand they do not like it when their daughter has sex with a man almost ten years older.

But, did their behaviour contribute in ANY way to the happiness of their daughter?
No, there can be no doubt that they only brought tremendous misery to their own daugther, to her lover and to themselves.
(When I was this girl and I truly loved Korn, I would hate my parents for the rest of my life; probably I would refuse to speak with them ever again!)

For the record: I have two younger sisters, so I am quite capable to imagine the situation.

And I have sufficient reason to believe that Korn is an intelligent, nice and sensitive human being.

	28-05-2003 23:17									#240
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quote: My guess is that most parents of this boy would be proud about it, especially when the woman was attractive! No one would speculate about 'emotional trauma' of their son...

Thanks for generalizing you sex-crazed hypocrite .

If I found out about that, I'd definetly attempt to put an end to it. There is no reason for a 16 year old boy to have sex with someone 9 years his elder! In this case, the woman is taking advantage.