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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Ran, well the US does not run over its civilians with tanks. |
Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming
We're finally on our own
This summer I hear the drumming
Four dead in Ohio
Gonna get down to it soldiers are cutting us down
Should have been down long ago
What if you knew her and found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know.
Gonna get down to it soldiers are cutting us down
Should have been down long ago
What if you knew her and found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Tingy, the government in Hong Kong is just a puppet controlled by Bejing. |
Oh I forgot, Fez is the expert on Hong Kong government. He knows far more about it than people like me or Urban Ranger. We just live here.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
You mean those shootings at those campuses? Well did it involve crushing true pro-democracy protesters with tanks? No.
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Shot by US soldiers, run over by Chinese tanks. Same diff. The protesters ended up dead.
quote:
Originally posted by Fez
But everybody knows the PRC government is working behind the scenes. To deny that would just be beyond me. |
Well, everybody knows that there are many, many things that are beyond you.
You should really try to learn some basic facts about a topic before you comment about it.
Provincial Chinese governments have a lot of autonomy in dealing with local issues and this is particularly true for Hong Kong. You have heard of the "One Country, Two Systerms" principle, haven't you?
The autonomy can be seen by the fact that the Hong Kong government responded differently to the SARS crisis compared to other Chinese provincial governments, and those governments responded differently compared to each other.
Most provincial governments on the Mainland refused to admit there was a problem with SARS. The Hong Kong government was quite open about what was happening.
The Guangdong provincial government was less open than Hong Kong, but more honest than Shanghai and Beijing municipal governments.
If Hong Kong was just a puppet of the Central Government, as you claim, then Hong Kong would have tried to hide the crisis. That did not happen.
The Hong Kong's government failure to react at an early stage is the result of a bureaucratic system created by the British. No one wanted to make a quick decision and as a result, the virus spread. It was not the result of Communism.
Yes, the Central Government works behind the scenes on major policy issues, but so do all federal governments. That's far different from Beijing being a puppet master as you claim.
The Central Government does not get involved in day-to-day issues in Hong Kong like how to treat sick people.
In short, Fez, you don't know what you are talking about.
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Jack_www
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You people act as if the United States still shoots protesters. In recent times their has not been shooting like that, and if there were, the public would have the head of the police officers or whoever done the shooting. Every nation is not prefect and has done things they are not to proud of, but of all nations on earth China is the worst when it comes to human rights.
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Jack_www
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Personally I am not worried too much about SARS. When I was listening to the news they sounded like SARS was going to kill us all. Of course they like to scare people to get ratings. Other deases kill more people in a day they SARS has done since we first learned of it. So far SARS has not spread to far and it seems it being contained, but I dont think one can truly stop the spread of any dease.
In China the communist government I think the main reason they are having so many problems with SARS in the first place.
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by ranskaldan
!?
This is ridiculous. "All nations on Earth"? What kind of assertion is this?
There are many, many countries that are simply hellholes compared to China. The richer parts of China (Shanghai etc) are not bad at all compared to the west. I'm sure mindseye can tell you more about this.
Why don't you try talking to people who've actually been to China for a change? |
I was talking of human rights in China, not weather or not the place has a high standard of living. I never said China was bad place to live as far as location, and I am sure things are getting better slowly over there. But I was talking of human rights, and China is one the worst offenders of human rights in the world, and that is fact.
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
They shot journalists during GWII on more than one occasion. They also shot innocent civilians who didn't know English.
There is no absolute standards to human rights, in fact, flag burning is illegal in many countries. Besides, last I heard, a lot of innocent civilians in the US have been killed by loons with guns. |
So are you saying the US solders shot these people on purpose? They had inbeded reporters with the troops, why would they shoot reporters on purpose??
When you are in a war zone and people are shoting guns, things like this happen, but you cant tell me they were under orders to do this.
As for loons killing people with guns, well people are murdered in every city of the world. And all governments of the world recongize it as a crime and try to catch the ones responsible and punish them.
Yes US may have done some bad things, but I would rather live in the USA then any other place on earth. Here we enjoy lots of freedoms, and sadly in many parts of the world, including China they do not.
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by RedFred
I can't let this one pass.
China has been a source of many diseases in the past and probably many more in the future. But it has to do with a large population and extremely dense populations in certain areas. It also has to do with some agricultural practices which increase the possibility of pathogens passing from livestock animals to humans.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the ideology of the Chinese gov't. They reacted months too slowly to contain this, but as has already been pointed out, slow reaction time was not limited to the China. Canada, or at least Ontario, messed up pretty badly in this.
Now that international travel is so frequent, diseases can come from anywhere. If there is a lesson to be learned in the whole SARS debacle it is that all nations need to upgrade their contingency plans for infectious outbreaks. |
Well I ment to say that the government is part of the problem. Why? Because they try to play SARS down when it first started to spread, make it seem like it was nothing. Maybe this more has to do with their culture then the government. But yeah it is not the only reason is spread fast.
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Jack_www
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As for a standard of human rights, we do have it in the UN charter which CHina and almost all countries of the world are a part of, Urban Ranger. China is one of the worst when it comes to repecting these rights.
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ranskaldan
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Beijing ~ Singapore ~ Toronto ~ All hail to the new Rome
Sep 2001
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack_www
I was talking of human rights in China, not weather or not the place has a high standard of living. I never said China was bad place to live as far as location, and I am sure things are getting better slowly over there. But I was talking of human rights, and China is one the worst offenders of human rights in the world, and that is fact. |
... 
1) I wasn't talking about weather or geography.
2) "Slowly" getting better? The speed is breakneck rapid, even IF you consider the figures cooked. Shanghai 10 years ago and Shanghai today are totally different places.
3) Worst offender? What about North Korea? Or many nations in the Middle East? How about most of sub-Saharan Africa?
Yes, of course there are plenty of human rights violations in China, and of course these are problems that we need to work on, but most Chinese go through life without ever feeling the brutality of the state. Instead, many are enjoying the boom in living standards and prosperity. Freedom from want is also a key element of the rights each person should enjoy.
In fact, your beliefs echo that of some Asian people I know. They believe that America is a hellhole because every day, children go to school under the constant danger of being shot. This is definitely not as big a problem in China. But seriously - is America really so plagued by this problem that everyday you fear for your children's lives and wish you lived in Sweden? Of course not. Some people in Asia need to actually go to the United States and see what it's like - and then they'd understand.
And so, I suggest that during your next vacation, go to China and take a walk down Nanjing Road in Shanghai or Wangfujing Avenue in Beijing, both being shopping streets built for a new, affluent Chinese middle class that didn't even exist about 10 years ago. Then we'll see where you prefer to live, China or dozens of imploded, failed countries around the world where people lead horrendous lives with no rights whatsoever to speak of.
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by ranskaldan
...
1) I wasn't talking about weather or geography.
2) "Slowly" getting better? The speed is breakneck rapid, even IF you consider the figures cooked. Shanghai 10 years ago and Shanghai today are totally different places.
3) Worst offender? What about North Korea? Or many nations in the Middle East? How about most of sub-Saharan Africa?
Yes, of course there are plenty of human rights violations in China, and of course these are problems that we need to work on, but most Chinese go through life without ever feeling the brutality of the state. Instead, many are enjoying the boom in living standards and prosperity. Freedom from want is also a key element of the rights each person should enjoy.
In fact, your beliefs echo that of some Asian people I know. They believe that America is a hellhole because every day, children go to school under the constant danger of being shot. This is definitely not as big a problem in China. But seriously - is America really so plagued by this problem that everyday you fear for your children's lives and wish you lived in Sweden? Of course not. Some people in Asia need to actually go to the United States and see what it's like - and then they'd understand.
And so, I suggest that during your next vacation, go to China and take a walk down Nanjing Road in Shanghai or Wangfujing Avenue in Beijing, both being shopping streets built for a new, affluent Chinese middle class that didn't even exist about 10 years ago. Then we'll see where you prefer to live, China or dozens of imploded, failed countries around the world where people lead horrendous lives with no rights whatsoever to speak of. |
Yeah the only reason those people never get brothered is that they know if they speak out they will quickly be dealt with, so like so many other places in the world just go with the flow and keep quite. China does some pretty nasty things to those who speak out or even those who just wish to pratice their religious beliefs, and who knows how many people they have put in prison or killed because of it. China government is not the nicest in the world. And I know there are governments worst then the communist one in China, but they are already way down on the list as far as human rights. Most of what I am saying is mostly directed to the communist government of China, not the country itself.
I am sure China is a nice place to go on vacation and such, and that they treat tourists very nicely. But I can not accept the way the government of China treats its people and digards human rights. You sound as if they hold human rights dear in that country. Is that really so? If it is show me the proof of it.
And you know why I dont want to live in China? The major reason is that I know if I went there I would be put in jail or maybe even executed if I tried to execerise my religious beliefs in that country, or even just voiced oposition to some government policy.
Last edited by Jack_www on 28-05-2003 at 23:47
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by RedFred
Jack, every country has its own propaganda. Yours, mine and China included.
The danger is if you actually start believing your own propaganda you may also start believing that an American citizen is worth more than a citizen from another country. The next step on the slippery slope is that you may come to believe that lives of people in some foreign countries are of negligible importance. That could in turn lead to the belief that wars of aggression against foreign countries may be justified. |
So you are saying that all the stuff i posted is propaganda? That China's government does not abuse human rights?? I never said that I am better then anyelse just because of my skin color or the country I live in. I am just pointing out one of the many injustices that take place in the world. How is this propaganda??
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21-05-2003 14:16
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