25-05-2003 09:59									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen or probably because it was far superior to any other plane of its time?

I disagree with that bald headed statement.

	25-05-2003 10:03									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I disagree with that bald headed statement.

Sorry to bust your bubble but practically every professional account of WW2 military aviation agrees with my bald headed statement

	25-05-2003 10:03									#93
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Joseph:

That's not a Curtiss XP whatever... that was a pic of a Japanese experimental plane...

	25-05-2003 10:04									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Sorry to bust your bubble but practically every professional account of WW2 military aviation agrees with my bald headed statement

That is just plain bull****.

	25-05-2003 10:07									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Yak 1 = 8,700 Yak 3 = 4,850 Yak 7 = 6,400 Yak 9D = 16,800 ______________ 36,750

yep, my data is remarkably similar:

Yak-1: 8,721
Yak-3: 4,848
Yak-7: 6,399
Yak-9: 16,769 (All Yak-9 variants not just D)

	25-05-2003 10:08									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Well what about my site? So it is a piece of crap now because your source says something completely different?

I'm just telling you were I got the book, I have said nothing about were you may have found your source.
To my left, there are three book cases, full of military books. I have more book in my garage and more in a file cabinet. I also have more than 3,000 military model of aeroplane, tanks, cars, etc., in my garage. Someday I will take picture of it and post it here so everyone will know that I,m not kidding around when I discuss the Military or it's equiptment. Just remember that I worked for the military for 33 years.

	25-05-2003 10:08									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Fez That is just plain bull****.

yeah, whatever...

	25-05-2003 10:09									#98
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and to Fez and Master Zen:

There were many versions of both the Mustang and the Spitfire... Some Spitfires were superior to the P-51A (i think it was A but the originals in 1943) but were inferior to the better known P-51's of 1944... Supermarine Spitfires, especially past the Spitfire X I believe, were superior to the P-51's... so both of you are right depending on what specific version of each plane you're comparing.

and there's also the carrier version of the Spitfire, the Seafire to also complicate matters.

	25-05-2003 10:11									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph I'm just telling you were I got the book, I have said nothing about were you may have found your source. To my left, there are three book cases, full of military books. I have more book in my garage and more in a file cabinet. I also have more than 3,000 military model of aeroplane, tanks, cars, etc., in my garage. Someday I will take picture of it and post it here so everyone will know that I,m not kidding around when I discuss the Military or it's equiptment. Just remember that I worked for the military for 33 years.

Well I am not talking about you nor me. But the sources.. is my source not credible?

Anyways, the Republic aircraft I was talking about is my fav now.. lol..

	25-05-2003 10:12									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph I'm a member of Military Book Club, and I got this book about 2 months ago. It is new. They have a web site. Add .com to the name and you can see the site.

I've wanted to buy that book for a while now, however, the price is rather steep for this cash-strapped college student

The book isn't really that new though, I think it had a different name before actually, when I first found it at amazon it was out of print, perhaps this is a new edition with a new name.

	25-05-2003 10:17									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen yep, my data is remarkably similar: Yak-1: 8,721 Yak-3: 4,848 Yak-7: 6,399 Yak-9: 16,769 (All Yak-9 variants not just D)

We are so close that it don't matter. That mean that Mr. John Ellis did his home work before writing his book, The World War II Databook. This is a good read. The book list every battle almost and what was lost by all sides. And it list all production that they could account for of every material needed to fight a war.

	25-05-2003 10:18									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer and to Fez and Master Zen: There were many versions of both the Mustang and the Spitfire... Some Spitfires were superior to the P-51A (i think it was A but the originals in 1943) but were inferior to the better known P-51's of 1944... Supermarine Spitfires, especially past the Spitfire X I believe, were superior to the P-51's... so both of you are right depending on what specific version of each plane you're comparing. and there's also the carrier version of the Spitfire, the Seafire to also complicate matters.

I am unaware of the precise specs of the initial Mustang variant, the P-51B (without the bubbly canopy) but from what I've read, the P-51D was probably superior to the merlin-engined Spitfires (notably Mk. IX and below) whereas the Griffon-engined Spits were superior to the P-51D (major variants being the Mk. XII and XIV and some Seafire variants). There was a final version of the mustang, the P-51H which entered service in small numbers shortly before the war ended, it was probably on par with these.

	25-05-2003 10:19									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph We are so close that it don't matter. That mean that Mr. John Ellis did his home work before writing his book, The World War II Databook. This is a good read. The book list every battle almost and what was lost by all sides. And it list all production that they could account for of every material needed to fight a war.

I'm going to start saving some $$$ then, I guess it is worth the price (last time I checked it was like $80 )

	25-05-2003 10:20									#104
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Do I see Master Zen conceding? Well I concede partially... the Spitfire was just as good as the Mustang. Anyways, British aircraft design went downhill from then in my opinion.

	25-05-2003 10:29									#105
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Fez:

yeah and German aircraft design plummeted... in 1945, they had rocket fighters, jet fighters, jet bombers, the beginnings of vertical take off planes, the beginnings of forward swept wing aircraft, etc. amazing **** that was years ahead of the rest of the world. but since then, i can't think of a single German aircraft.

	25-05-2003 10:30									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Do I see Master Zen conceding? Well I concede partially... the Spitfire was just as good as the Mustang. Anyways, British aircraft design went downhill from then in my opinion.

nah, I'm not conceding, I'm just making my point clearer. I never said the Spit was superior to the Mustang in all respects, I said the Griffon-engined Spits were, I was also trying to make it clear that despite the Mustang's contribution to winning the air war, it was the Spit which was by far the best and most important allied fighter until then, and it was still just as important in the Allied arsenal in air operations not involving long-range bomber escort.

As for British aircraft going downhill, what about the Tempest and the Meteor? Both were remarkable planes in their own right. Sure, post WW2-aviation is another thing, they didn't have enough $$ to keep up with US and Soviet designs, today it's just a shadow, besides the Harrier no major British combat aircraft in service (or planned) today is a 100% british venture.

	25-05-2003 10:32									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen it was the Spit which was by far the best and most important allied fighter until then,

In which theater?

	25-05-2003 10:32									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Fez: yeah and German aircraft design plummeted... in 1945, they had rocket fighters, jet fighters, jet bombers, the beginnings of vertical take off planes, the beginnings of forward swept wing aircraft, etc. amazing **** that was years ahead of the rest of the world. but since then, i can't think of a single German aircraft.

And on the other hand, the French haven't done that bad: Rafale, Mirage series...

The Mirage III is along with the MiG-21 and the F-16 probably the most widely used post-war fighter.

	25-05-2003 10:34									#109
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc In which theater?

I believe the spit-mustang debate is centered on the European theater.

	25-05-2003 10:42									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Fez: yeah and German aircraft design plummeted... in 1945, they had rocket fighters, jet fighters, jet bombers, the beginnings of vertical take off planes, the beginnings of forward swept wing aircraft, etc. amazing **** that was years ahead of the rest of the world. but since then, i can't think of a single German aircraft.

Because there are none. Every plane, the Germans have flown since 1945 has been British, or American. There has been some joint venture with England, Italy, etc.

	25-05-2003 10:47									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen And on the other hand, the French haven't done that bad: Rafale, Mirage series... The Mirage III is along with the MiG-21 and the F-16 probably the most widely used post-war fighter.

The French aircraft weren't bad for their time.. but the French "airforce" has lagged greatly... in recent times.

Master Zen, you must also accept the fact I can disagree with what you say.

	25-05-2003 10:47									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Fez That is just plain bull****.

Fez, Me262 was years, if not light years ahead of any other WW2 fighter.

	25-05-2003 10:49									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Fez, Me262 was years, if not light years ahead of any other WW2 fighter.

I disagree. They were not light years ahead of anything.

What a dumb post, serb. I know your history.

	25-05-2003 10:50									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Because there are none. Every plane, the Germans have flown since 1945 has been British, or American. There has been some joint venture with England, Italy, etc.

I recall Dornier making some patrol/transport aircraft used to some extent today

	25-05-2003 10:54									#115
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Ah yes.. the Tornado fighter jet... a favorite of mine.. built by Italy, Germany and Britain in the late 60s...

I completely forgot about it.

Well the Italians did spurn out something... the AMX Fighter jet. A good one for that matter..



Not very well known though. This project was only done by Italy... I think Brazil may have had a part as they received shipments of it, however.

	25-05-2003 10:54									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Fez The French aircraft weren't bad for their time.. but the French "airforce" has lagged greatly... in recent times. Master Zen, you must also accept the fact I can disagree with what you say.

Of course you can, isn't that the beauty of discussion in the first place?

	25-05-2003 10:55									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Joseph: That's not a Curtiss XP whatever... that was a pic of a Japanese experimental plane...

You are correct, it is the Kyushu J7W1 Shinden. The XP-55 and the Shinden are very close if you don,t look hard.

	25-05-2003 10:55									#118
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Even the AMX is a joint venture, it's an Italian/Brazilian plane actually

EDIT: EMBRAER was the Brazilian aircraft firm involved

	25-05-2003 10:57									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I believe the spit-mustang debate is centered on the European theater.

Then how can we decide if a plain is the most important allied fighter if we only focus on 1/2 the conflict?

	25-05-2003 10:58									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Even the AMX is a joint venture, it's an Italian/Brazilian plane actually

Yes but I think Italian companies were the ones flipping most of the bill. And thus Italy got far more shipments of it.

Italy has 129 AMX fighters in total and Brazil has only 41.

Source:
http://www.mylima.com/airforce