25-05-2003 11:00									#121
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then how can we decide if a plain is the most important allied fighter if we only focus on 1/2 the conflict?

The debate has been implicitly devoted to what was the most important western-allied plane in the European theater. I have understood it to be that way and I believe most people (mind you of course) have too.

	25-05-2003 11:02									#122
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Master Zen:

and the Mirage 2000 which might be better than even the F-16.

	25-05-2003 11:03									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Yes but I think Italian companies were the ones flipping most of the bill. And thus Italy got far more shipments of it. Italy has 129 AMX fighters in total and Brazil has only 41. Source: http://www.mylima.com/airforce

I don't know the exact detals on the colaboration but yes, Italy has been the major partner but it nevertheless considered a joint venture as EMBRAER has had a major part of the devolpment.

I recall the ads on Jane's years ago and it did have both the italian and brazilian firms as the colaborators.

	25-05-2003 11:03									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Master Zen: and the Mirage 2000 which might be better than even the F-16.

I don't think so.

	25-05-2003 11:04									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I don't know the exact detals on the colaboration but yes, Italy has been the major partner but it nevertheless considered a joint venture as EMBRAER has had a major part of the devolpment. I recall the ads on Jane's years ago and it did have both the italian and brazilian firms as the colaborators.

I again disagree somewhat on this statement. I would assume Italy had a greater part in the project thus receiving great amounts of the aircraft, because of the larger budget of the Italian military.

	25-05-2003 11:05									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Master Zen: and the Mirage 2000 which might be better than even the F-16.

According to some people yes, the Mirage 2000 is superior to the F-16. Many latin american countries have the Mirage 2000 as the US has been rather reluctant to release the F-16 over here (only Venezuela has it, and Chile just ordered some).

Edit: changed "many" to "some" as there's a lot of debate to this.

	25-05-2003 11:06									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I again disagree somewhat on this statement. I would assume Italy had a greater part in the project thus receiving great amounts of the aircraft, because of the larger budget of the Italian military.

It's not a matter of who gets more, but who contributed the most to the development process. Yes, I too said that Italy had the major share in both, where's the disagreement?

	25-05-2003 11:07									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen According to many people yes, the Mirage 2000 is superior to the F-16. Many latin american countries have the Mirage 2000 as the US has been rather reluctant to release the F-16 over here (only Venezuela has it, and Chile just ordered some).

That is false. The Mirage 2000 is not better than the F-16 and isn't even close.

Name one country in Latin America that has the Mirage 2000. Argentina has old Mirage 5s and IIIs.. Peru has MiG-29s.. Ecuador has Jaguars.. Colombia has Israeli Built aircraft...

Edit: Actually I was mistaken. Peru does have a small batch of Mirage 2000. But that was all I could find on the presence of this aircraft here in Latin America.

	25-05-2003 11:09									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen It's not a matter of who gets more, but who contributed the most to the development process. Yes, I too said that Italy had the major share in both, where's the disagreement?

Okay I guess I misintrepreted your post. English is not my first language.

	25-05-2003 11:11									#130
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the two Spaniards sparing off...

	25-05-2003 11:12									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer the two Spaniards sparing off...

I thought he is Mexican?

You really should be careful when making sweeping generalizations like that.

	25-05-2003 11:14									#132
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whatever... Mexicans are of spanish descent... the latin and the spaniard are sparing off...

	25-05-2003 11:16									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer whatever... Mexicans are of spanish descent... the latin and the spaniard are sparing off...

You are doing it again.

I am actually latin. He is considered latino. If I have this right..

	25-05-2003 11:19									#134
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alright... god damn... the two people who are of spanish descent and both speak spanish are sparing off...

always got to make it difficult, Fez...

	25-05-2003 11:21									#135
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That is how I am, Al. I always make things more complicated than they really are.

Well I am going to bed anyways.. I am guessing my mexican friend will have to aswell.

	25-05-2003 11:23									#136
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quote: Well I am going to bed anyways.. I am guessing my mexican friend will have to aswell.

if he gets to come to your bed how come I can't?

	25-05-2003 11:24									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Fez That is false. The Mirage 2000 is not better than the F-16 and isn't even close. Name one country in Latin America that has the Mirage 2000. Argentina has old Mirage 5s and IIIs.. Peru has MiG-29s.. Ecuador has Jaguars.. Colombia has Israeli Built aircraft...

Peru

	25-05-2003 11:24									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer if he gets to come to your bed how come I can't?

Oh damn.. I didn't mean that... that came out completely wrong.. freudian slip I guess. I really didn't mean that.

Hey, Zen.. thanks for not reading the edit.

	25-05-2003 11:26									#139
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Just because we are from spanish decent does not make us "spanish". Every latin american is a mixture of indian/black and european blood to a greater of lesser extent.

	25-05-2003 11:29									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Oh damn.. I didn't mean that... that came out completely wrong.. freudian slip I guess. I really didn't mean that. Hey, Zen.. thanks for not reading the edit.

damn I missed it!!!!

	25-05-2003 11:33									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I am unaware of the precise specs of the initial Mustang variant, the P-51B (without the bubbly canopy) but from what I've read, the P-51D was probably superior to the merlin-engined Spitfires (notably Mk. IX and below) whereas the Griffon-engined Spits were superior to the P-51D (major variants being the Mk. XII and XIV and some Seafire variants). There was a final version of the mustang, the P-51H which entered service in small numbers shortly before the war ended, it was probably on par with these.

P-51B =440 at 30,000 ft. Range w/2 tanks 1250 miles
P-51D =437 at 25,000 ft. Range w/2 tanks 1650 miles.
P-51H =460 at 20,000 ft. Combat Radlius w/2 tanks 1125 miles
Spitfire
Mark
1 =355 at 19,000 Range 395 miles
V =374 at 13,000 " 1135
VII=408 at 25,000 " 1180
VIII=408 at 25,000 " 1180
IX = 408 at 25,000 " 980
X = 416 at 27,000 " 1360
XI = 422 at 27,500 " 2000
XII = 393 at 18,000 " 493
XIV= 448 at 26,000 " 850
XVIII=442 at 25,000 " 850
XIX = 446 at 26,000 " 1550
F.21 = 454 at 26,000 " 880
F.24 = 450 at 19,000 " 965
Seafire 1 = 365 at 16,000 " 770
Seafire III= 352 at 12,250 " 725
Seafire 47= 451 at 20,000 " 1475
The Mustang H was the fastest. only 5 Spitfires was faster than the D model. 1 Spits had more range than the D model.

	25-05-2003 11:33									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I disagree. They were not light years ahead of anything. What a dumb post, serb. I know your history.

Me262 had speed of 900 kmph. 200 kmph faster than your beloved P-51. Only such as you are may claim that Me262 wasn't superiour to fighters of Allies.

	25-05-2003 11:34									#143
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Master Zen:

A lot of people exaggerate the indian/black mixture in hispanics... a place like Puerto Rico for example had the native population wiped out at the start of colonization and there never was a significant slave population so Puerto Ricans are basically the same as any Castillian or Catalonyan. the same can be repeated through most latin american countries where the native population is pretty low and blacks were not too known for freely mixing with the Spanish population. Though countries like Bolivia and Peru are mostly native or native/Spanish and Brazil and Trinidad are black or black/european, the typical Latin American is mostly Spanish.

Plenty of people in the US are mixed but they still consider themselves a certain thing... an average black person could easily say they are a quarter Seminole and 1/8th Scotch-Irish but they would still say they are black. A white person would also still say he is white though his grandmother may have been a Cherokee. Why Spanish in Latin America take these percentages and suddenly declare themselves a new race is beyond me


thanks

	25-05-2003 11:35									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Me262 had speed of 900 kmph. 200 kmph faster than your beloved P-51. Only such as you are may claim that Me262 wasn't superiour to fighters of Allies.

Proof, not crap.

So you would of supported the Nazis? Geez.. that explains a lot about you. I know you.. full of crap.

	25-05-2003 11:40									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Me262 had speed of 900 kmph. 200 kmph faster than your beloved P-51. Only such as you are may claim that Me262 wasn't superiour to fighters of Allies.

Then explain why some P-51s shot down some Me-262?

	25-05-2003 11:40									#146
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Fez:

The Me262 was a very effective aircraft. the problem was that Germany lacked the experienced pilots to pilot it, they lacked the jet fuel, and the engine needed to be refitted constantly... still, even with usually no more than four Me262's taking on whole bomber formations, they were amazingly effective, rarely suffering loses and taking down plenty of Allied aircraft. Some historians hypothesize that if the Germans had actually been able to get all their Me262's up in the air at the same time, they would have shot down hundreds of allied planes.

	25-05-2003 11:42									#147
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Joseph:

I think you know why... P-51 pilots learned that the Me262's were most vulnerable when landing because if suddenly attacked, they could not quickly accelerate to escape the American planes... most P-51's that shot down Me262's did so with this tactic

	25-05-2003 11:42									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Master Zen: A lot of people exaggerate the indian/black mixture in hispanics... a place like Puerto Rico for example had the native population wiped out at the start of colonization and there never was a significant slave population so Puerto Ricans are basically the same as any Castillian or Catalonyan. the same can be repeated through most latin american countries where the native population is pretty low and blacks were not too known for freely mixing with the Spanish population. Though countries like Bolivia and Peru are mostly native or native/Spanish and Brazil and Trinidad are black or black/european, the typical Latin American is mostly Spanish. Plenty of people in the US are mixed but they still consider themselves a certain thing... an average black person could easily say they are a quarter Seminole and 1/8th Scotch-Irish but they would still say they are black. A white person would also still say he is white though his grandmother may have been a Cherokee. Why Spanish in Latin America take these percentages and suddenly declare themselves a new race is beyond me thanks

My GG Grandmother was Cherokee. In the 1870s, they would have called me a haft breed, oh well.

	25-05-2003 11:45									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Joseph: I think you know why... P-51 pilots learned that the Me262's were most vulnerable when landing because if suddenly attacked, they could not quickly accelerate to escape the American planes... most P-51's that shot down Me262's did so with this tactic

I know. I just wanted Serb to tell me in his way .

	25-05-2003 11:53									#150
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You better ask Fez why he believe that P-51 was superiour to Me262. I have no desire to talk with him. It's like