27-05-2003 10:51									#1
	Rotation of Consuls Inflate your Upload Space

Hola,

I think it is time we start adapting some sort of constitutional framework on the issue of Rotation of Consuls. This is an idea which I had proposed weeks ago (and like my Evil Plans, getting little attention at first) but a few events have apparently arisen which have given this idea new life, mainly the CoC performed on MrWhereItsAt and the continuing issues of poor member participation which has prompted for new ideas based on more participation, notably elections.

The premise behind this idea is the following:

1) The system of three Consuls will be maintained

2) The position of these three Consuls will rotate on a timely or turn-based basis. Every such time limit an election will be called for a new Consul upon which the oldest serving Consul will step down (or run in the ensuing election should he choose so) thus breathing new life yet maintaining continuity in policy as two of the the 3 consuls from the previous triumvirate will always be present.

3) Elections will be held upon which the majority winner is elected. The Consul which is in line to step down is free to run again in the ensuing election (thus having always the possibility of re-election) . Any member of the team may nominate himself for a Consulship during elections.


The benefits:

- As of now, the only way to remove a Consul is via a Change of Command (CoC). CoC's are by nature "negative" and not helpful for team spirit as they express the desire of someone stepping down for not doing a good job. In other words, a CoC reflects FAILURE, whereas an election represents SUCCESS as the elected member was proven to be the most capable for such a job.

- If a Consul is doing a good job, he will be re-elected. Good government therefore is rewarded

- CoC's also unwillingly foment personal grudges, unfounded or not, between people. That is not the best way to run a team.


Please discuss everything related to this proposal here so we can ammend the Constitution as soon as possible.

-MZ

Last edited by Master Zen on 27-05-2003 at 11:09

	27-05-2003 10:55									#2
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In another thread Dominae had made some excellent comments about the time limit and electoral process which also deserve to be discussed:

quote: How about this: Every 30 days, we draw up a list of people who want to become or remain Consul. Everyone then ranks their top three candidates (even the current Consuls). Top candidate is worth 3 points, second-best is worth 2 points, third-best is worth 1 point. For instance, in an upcoming election, I would vote: MrWhereItsAt - 3 points (trying to make friends here!) vondrack - 2 points panag - 1 point The next Consuls are those with the highest tallied rankings. This system has the following benefits: 1. Votes of "no confidence" and CoCs are hidden in the point tallies. A current Consul will get voted out based on majority opinion every time, without being publicly "humiliated". Similarly, new candidates will get voted in without having to win a popularity contest. 2. Current Consuls will likely stick around if they're doing a good job, since with the ranking system it is more difficult to boot someone outright (on average, recognized candidates will float toward the top, since they will get some points from everyone). 3. No need to embarrass someone by nominating them. If you want to be included in the vote, you just say so. You're not "running", you're "included in the tally" (I know the distinction is illusory, but I think it makes people feel better). 4. Potential for long or short terms, depending on the needs of the team. If Theseus wants to step in as Consul because we've declared war on CDG, he can do so and gracefully step out in 30 days.

I wholeheartedly agree with his ideas.

	27-05-2003 10:55									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Instead of having the Consuls step down, we should have each one up for re-election every three months, one Consul per month.

But this option isn't presented so I have voted "abstain" in this poll.

--Togas

	27-05-2003 10:56									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I was hoping to avoid linking to my own proposals, and Master Zen has made this hope come true! Huzzah!

	27-05-2003 10:59									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Instead of having the Consuls step down, we should have each one up for re-election every three months, one Consul per month. But this option isn't presented so I have voted "abstain" in this poll. --Togas

I would disagree with this as theoretically it would be possible to replace all three Consuls and I think some measure of continuity must be preserved at all costs.

If people are totally sick of the three Consuls, then a CoC would be in order under such an unlikely circumstance.

Again, the CoC will not be eliminated from the Constution, this new process simply ensures that it is only used when it is truly necessary.

But again, this is a proposal worth discussing.

-MZ

	27-05-2003 11:02									#6
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Point 3 'The Consul which steps down is free to run again'. gets me past Togas' abstain. We are now talking language.

Instead of step down, say face re-election. Gets a yes from me.

	27-05-2003 11:04									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I would disagree with this as theoretically it would be possible to replace all three Consuls and I think some measure of continuity must be preserved at all costs.

I think you're reading it wrong. Only 1 of the 3 would be up for reelection every month, so there would always be 2 "veteran" Consuls in place should a "rookie" consul be elected.

However, the idea of ranking them all has merit, except that (as you noted) it would be possible to have all 3 removed at once, which may not be the best system, as it wouldn't promote the continuity and flow of the game to have a sudden new group of 3 in charge.

--Togas

	27-05-2003 11:09									#8
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Point 3 'The Consul which steps down is free to run again'. gets me past Togas' abstain. We are now talking language. Instead of step down, say face re-election. Gets a yes from me.

Good point nye, I have edited the original post to make it clear that the Consul which steps down can be re-elected immediately.

	27-05-2003 11:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Good point nye, I have edited the original post to make it clear that the Consul which steps down can be re-elected immediately.

In that case, it does appear to satisfy my original concern. One consul every month on a rotating basis is scheduled to either step down or face re-election.

You can change my abstain to agreement.

--Togas

	27-05-2003 11:19									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

I made this suggestion about having rotating Consuls with elections to rpelace those that are rotated out back on May 17th. It didn't recieve much attention then, but maybe now it will. :P

Seriously though, it can we re-worded and the roations made a little shorter.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Regular elections might not be a bad thing. I can't remember much of the discussion that went into them not being in the constitution.

The reason it's hard to remeber them is that they hardly existed.

The Constitution for this game was setup by just a few people. Care to tell me how many people actually framed AND voted on our Constitution out of our 80+ members? The beginings of this game were frantic to say the least.

I've been going along with this govenment because things seemd to be going ok. I mad a couple of fusses earlier on, but things were worked out. Don't take this a me saying that I don't think the Consuls are doing the job as delineated by the Constitution or that they are not doing a good job at it. Rather my position is that the Constitution is at fault here.

It doesn't allow for regular elections; it doesn't allow for changes to made within our governemnt for new people with new ideas to have power without there being some sort of perception of a slight to those that may be asked to stand down in the case of a CoC or even the Consuls asking for a new Minister.

Whether we draw up a new Constituion or amend this one doesn't matter to me, as long as it is done.

IDEAS

We can have a revolving Consulship, with elections held every month for a new incomming Consul with one Consul stepping down. Maybe have a rule that says that Consuls can only reclaim the position as Consul after 4 Elections has past since he stepped down, so that the same 4 won't just do the same job. This spacing makes it neccessary for at least 7 different Consuls. Here's a sample of how it would look:

1st Election:

1. A
2. B
3. C

2nd Election:

1. D
2. A
3. B
Consul C must wait for 3 Elections from now until he can run again.

3rd Election:

1. E
2. D
3. A
Consul B must wait for 3 Elections from now until he can run again.
Consul C must wait for 2 Elections from now until he can run again.

4th Election:

1. F
2. E
3. D
Consul A must wait for 3 Elections from now until he can run again.
Consul B must wait for 2 Elections from now until he can run again.
Consul C must wait for 1 Elections from now until he can run again.

5th Election:

1. G
2. F
3. E
Consul D must wait for 3 Elections from now until he can run again.
Consul A must wait for 2 Elections from now until he can run again.
Consul B must wait for 1 Elections from now until he can run again.
Consul C May now run in the next Election.

6th Election:

1. C
2. G
3. F


I'd like to see other ideas for a new/amended Constitution.

	27-05-2003 11:27									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Togas In that case, it does appear to satisfy my original concern. One consul every month on a rotating basis is scheduled to either step down or face re-election. You can change my abstain to agreement. --Togas

That was my idea to begin with, I apologize for not having made myself clear in my original post.

Now you know why I'm not a lawyer

	27-05-2003 11:39									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree The reason it's hard to remeber them is that they hardly existed. The Constitution for this game was setup by just a few people. Care to tell me how many people actually framed AND voted on our Constitution out of our 80+ members? The beginings of this game were frantic to say the least.

Bull.

4 pages of it:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=76177

Another 5 pages of it:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=75848

Here people were debating our initial leadership. 3 pages of it:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=75907

and 5 more pages on leadership:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=76687

and another 6 pages to ratify the constitution:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=76450

You weren't here, doesn't mean it wasn't discussed.

	27-05-2003 11:57									#13
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nye, there were 27 votes cast total. My point was that the level of membership was nowhere where it is now. We have (going on) 90 member's now (IIRC.)

I'm not saying the process wan't legal or fair. But the times have changed and we have many more new members. There's even member's who voted on that Constitution who are no longer participating in this game. We need a new Constituion written, voted on, and supported by the current member's and most importantly the active member's. Out of the current roster of "Member's" we will not get more than a 60% turnout for a poll even if if were to last two weeks. The active members that are here now should have the most say in how we are to run this team.

I believe what was done in the past was done for what was best at the time, for better or worse. I do not mean to disrepect what was done, rather I'm saying we need to change what was done because it no longer agrees with the team's feelings are towards the Constitution now.

	27-05-2003 12:08									#14
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Sorry, forgot to include this. But when I said "that they were hardly included," I was talking mostly about discussion centering on making the Consul position re-electable after a certain period of time.

	27-05-2003 12:31									#15
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I think that rather than more new members, we have less, (in practical terms)

Look at all these threads we post these days, always the same 10 people. Back then participation was far more diverse.

	27-05-2003 13:49									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I think that rather than more new members, we have less, (in practical terms) Look at all these threads we post these days, always the same 10 people. Back then participation was far more diverse.

You ask for diverse opinion ? ok.

1. The Consul have been around for a long time. Maybe it's time to re-elect ALL the Consuls.

2. Assuming nye, vondrack & MWIA all stand for re-election, and we have new candidates A, B, C and D. We will hold the election in early Jun. The top 3 Consul will be elected (using the counting method in the initial election, I cannot remember the name)

3. Rank the top 3 Consul base on the votes received in the June election (again using the counting method in the initial election). The highest-vote Consul will serve for 3 mths, the second-highest will serve for 2 mths, and the Consul with the lowest vote will serve for 1 mth and has to stand for re-election or step down in July.

4. The newly elected Consul in July will serve 3 mths term.

5. If one of the 2 Consuls not due for re-election wants to step down in July, then the July election will elect 2 Consuls instead of one, and the ranking method in 3 applies. If all wants to step down, well, the July election will elect 3 Consuls.

Thanks.

	27-05-2003 13:53									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

What about a combination:

After each month, re-elections take place, but it's not necessarily the oldest consul who must step down.

Instead, all three consuls are available to elect. Anyone who wishes to run for Consul, too.
We use the ranking system (3-2-1 points) proposed by Dominae.

• The two (current) consuls who get the most votes (out of the three consuls) shall remain in office. These two people are removed from the list of candidates.
  
• The person who, from the remainder of the list, gets the most votes overall (be it a consul or a new face) will get elected.
  

	27-05-2003 13:58									#18
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quote: What should I vote? "Abstain"?

I posted the poll to see if people were in favor of a rotation of consuls, in that sense if you are in favor, vote yes.

The details of said rotation are to be discussed and settled on in this thread, the final outcome will not necessarily be exactly like what I proposed, or Dominae, or BF, or you, perhaps it will be a combination that works best. We still have time, I don't believe in hurrying things, the more we discuss the better outcome we will get, and that is only good for the team in the end

btw,

your idea is also interesting...

	27-05-2003 17:45									#19
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hi ,

in favor

have a nice day

	27-05-2003 18:29									#20
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I was in favour of having the CoC vote only, and I fought hard for it while the constitution was being written. Now I see that it has not worked out the way I would have liked, so therefore I vote in favour of the rotating consulship.

	27-05-2003 19:20									#21
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I really really like BFM's most recent proposal (a few posts up). Please re-read it, everyone. It has everything we're looking for, I think.


Dominae

	27-05-2003 20:20									#22
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I *think* I like it, but I'm not entirely clear on how it would work....

Would we be able to vote three times per poll, then? It seems like maybe bi-monthly would be often enough. I'm not a big fan of campaigning, and the occasional need to make a controversial but important decision doesn't need to be weighed against "will I get kicked off Consulship for this" later... hmm. Or does it? Heh.

	27-05-2003 21:01									#23
	Remove this text

Yes, everyone should name 3 persons, in order of preference. The first gets 3 points, the second 2 and the third 1. Continue as described above.

	28-05-2003 06:27									#24
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BFM, I have re-read your proposal, would like to clarify a point ...

What if one or more of the existing Consul decides to step down, does the remaining Consul(s) get automatically elected since "2 Consuls with the most vote will remain in Office" ?

I think the answer should be No. So. I would suggest amending the line to something like "the existing Consul with the lowest vote will join the remainder of the list" "The person who, from the remainder of the list, gets the most votes overall (be it a consul or a new face) will get elected."

	28-05-2003 08:04									#25
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Why assure any of the consuls a continued seat? If they are doing well, they will get the votes to stay. If things are going right off the rails... it might not be a bad idea to have the possibility of a clean slate.

	28-05-2003 08:44									#26
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In that case we'd still need at least one (former) Consul to hang around for a bit to tutor the new ones. It may seem second nature now, nye, but there's a lot to do in a small timeframe. Getting the hang of it would necessarily be a steep learning curve over the course of little more than a day or two. Once you see what needs to be done it'd be OK though.

	28-05-2003 09:55									#27
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Yes, MrWIA. I agree. However, for all 3 to be swept aside, the circumstances would be extreme, would they not?

Maybe just assure 1 consul a seat. That would serve the needs of continuity amidst change would it not? The 2 new would be able to make their presense felt if the people felt that drastic change was needed.

btw, I am trying to open things up a bit. It is clear that our team prefers both despotism (poll running) and a voice for the people (countless posts in the last 2 weeks). I hope that we can find a way that both are served without sacrificing our chances to win the game. That way does seem to be the dictators of the Roman Republic. Now, to find the way to make them accountable enough that they (we) do not become emperors.

	28-05-2003 10:19									#28
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither btw, I am trying to open things up a bit. It is clear that our team prefers both despotism (poll running) and a voice for the people (countless posts in the last 2 weeks). I hope that we can find a way that both are served without sacrificing our chances to win the game. That way does seem to be the dictators of the Roman Republic. Now, to find the way to make them accountable enough that they (we) do not become emperors.

The imminent threat of losing their seats in the next election should be enough in terms of accountability IMO.

	28-05-2003 14:06									#29
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quote: Originally posted by rush What if one or more of the existing Consul decides to step down, does the remaining Consul(s) get automatically elected since "2 Consuls with the most vote will remain in Office" ?

Yes. My proposal was constructed in such a way to ensure 'continuity' of 2 of the Consuls. If one steps down, the other two would remain in office automatically. If two step down, the third would remain in office. If three step down, it's an open election.

	28-05-2003 14:26									#30
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So the only thing that BFM's proposal does not have is the one idea nye has brought up, where there is only a guarantee that one incumbent Consul wills tay in, or there is no guarantee that any number of Consuls who want to stay in will end up doing so. This ideas is tantamount to a free election as in the SPDG, with no term limits.

In the interest of keeping at least someone about to ease the transition, I'd have to favour having at least one previous Consul guaranteed a seat, unless all Consuls wished to retire at once. Still not sure if having one or two remain is best though.