Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Washington Warmongering Undermining Iranian Reform
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (5): [ 1   2   3   4     >> ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 08:56 Visit Ramo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Washington Warmongering Undermining Iranian Reform Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Pentagon Adds to Despair of Iran's Reformers
by Dan De Luce in Tehran

The Pentagon's pronouncement that it would seek to "destabilize" Iran's Islamic republic has given the country's clerics ammunition to portray their liberal opponents as traitors. Hardly a day passes without warnings in the official press against reformists accused of sowing divisions.

"America is trying to undermine our national unity by provoking chaos and political differences as well as creating a crisis," said Mohammed Baqer Zolqadr, the deputy commander of the Revolutionary Guards.

Washington's rhetoric could not have come at a more awkward time for President Mohammed Khatami and his allies in parliament. As the political and constitutional battle between reformists and Islamists comes to a head, the US intervention is a distraction and a pretext for muffling dissent.

Reformist MPs, who form a parliamentary majority, are threatening to resign en masse after repeated obstruction by conservatives on the guardian council, an unelected body but possessing a constitutional veto over legislative change.

The final straw came last month when the council rejected two bills proposed by President Khatami that would have ended clerical authority over the judiciary and the electoral process.

Conservatives portray the threat to resign as naive and dangerous, damaging Iran's national security at a time when the US military encircles Iran. The state prosecutor warned MPs that they might face legal action if their resignations threatened "national interests".

If the MPs do stay, they will enter February's elections with nothing to show for their promises of change. If they step down, the conservatives may choose to impose emergency rule to pre-empt protest.

Diplomats say President Khatami and other reformers are furious that the US has decided to publicly pressure Iran at such a delicate time.

Perhaps more damaging has been Washington's efforts to promote Reza Pahlavi, the son of the shah overthrown in 1979. Even the most radical democracy activists regard him as a laughing stock when he appears on satellite TV broadcasts from Los Angeles.

Irrespective of US meddling, Iran's democracy experiment seems to have hit a brick wall. Six years since the smiling, soft-spoken president was elected on a wave of optimism, Iranians are wondering what happened. "I'm in my 30s. By the time things change, I'll be an old woman," said a professor. "That's too late for me."

At the weekend, 130 reformist MPs issued an open letter to Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who as supreme leader, or head of state, has the constitutional role of advising the president, warning that Iran might slide into dictatorship if conservatives were allowed to flout the popular will.

President Khatami has hinted in the past he might resign. But he has offered no rallying cry. His manner seems more suited to academia, and some close associates say he will seek a negotiated compromise at almost any cost.

The clerics cite the constitution and sharia law to justify their veto - although the reformers claim they exceed their constitutional powers - and appear in no mood to compromise. Many of President Khatami's allies fear negotiation would end in the death of the movement.

Reformists started to lose their footing in 1999, when student protests were brutally crushed by the Basij militia. "Ever since then, reformers have been on the defensive, afraid of triggering more repression or violence," said one Iranian analyst. At local elections in February, voters expressed disillusionment by staying away from polls, enabling conservatives to win major cities.

Marking the sixth anniversary of his landslide election, the president last week acknowledged the reform campaign had lost its momentum. "The reality is that we are in a new atmosphere today, and due to natural and unnatural reasons, the original zest and enthusiasm has faded," he wrote.

His detractors see him as an Iranian Alexander Dubcek, the 1968 Czechoslovak "Prague Spring" leader too much part of communism to reform it and too diplomatic a personality to do battle.

President Khatami's supporters say he has pushed the system as far as he could.

"He was the right man at the right time in 1997. He opened up discussion and debate. But his chapter is closing," said a middle-aged businesswoman. "Someone else will have to emerge for the next stage."


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0527-02.htm

Shrub's policy towards Iran really has been totally disastrous. As long as the US is seen as a threat to Iran, the conservatives can prevent any changes by the reformists.

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 10:16 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

So Bush's foreign policy is idiotic, what else is new?

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 10:25
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

Just his foreign policies?

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 10:35 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

Point taken.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 10:36 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Vote.

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
King
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 10:42 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

Most people voted for someone else last time

OK, OK, that was a lame comeback, just trying to be cute

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 10:44 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

David! How's your hammer hangin' ?

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 10:45 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

Well that didn't work too well did it? More people voted for the other guy, yet Bush is now in the White House.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 10:49 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If you're saying Gore should have won, I shudder to think of what the situation would be today, had he truly won.

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 10:56 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't think we'd be in this mess if he had won.

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
King
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:08 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

At the very least Ashcroft wouldn't be in office, and that's worth having Gore in power by quite a bit.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:13 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:17 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Granted, if Gore had won, we'd probably be in a totally different mess

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:20
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Iranian reform wasn't going anywhere, anyway, and that's about 90% of the problem.

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:22 Visit Dis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

you anti-Bush people are so silly and unimformed.

Did you really think reform was happening in Iran? You just picked up on this story because it was against Bush.

Before you say something I'm not a conservative mind you.

I feel that being too far to the right is just as bad as being too far to the left. It blinds you to the truth.

The truth is there, if you put your political leanings away for a moment, you can find it.

Cruddy is offline Cruddy
Warlord

Mar 2003
time: 05:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:28 Visit Cruddy's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

What I find very strange about this story is that an institution supposedly committed to "defending" is out to destabilise a foreign power.

What is even more surprising is that the inhabitants of said foreign power had a popular revolt to kick out the US 2 decades ago.

You would think the Pentagon could take a hint like that.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:33 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, see the deal is that terrorist regimes are going down.
Take a hint.

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:40 Visit Dis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

the thing is while I don't agree with destablizing other countries in general, when the support terrorists in a major way- that belief doesn't hold up. Terrorists supporting nations used to not bother me, but something happened that changed that. This is war- make no mistake about that.

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:44 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Iranian reform wasn't going anywhere, anyway, and that's about 90% of the problem.


-While that wasn't good, going nowhere is better than collapsing to conservative opposition. If Bush does his best to destabilize Iran, the reformers are going to lose serious ground.

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:47 Visit Dis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Isn't it possible they could gain ground?

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 11:57
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The reforms never could go anywhere because they have an unelected "senate" with veto power, so it does no good to elect a reformer president and legislature when the clerics will simply block anything they don't like.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 12:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Iranian reform wasn't going anywhere, anyway, and that's about 90% of the problem.


Still doesn't make it a brilliant idea for the pentagon ***** to ease the domestic pressure on the Mullahs.

Victor Galis is offline Victor Galis
Emperor
in exile
Jul 1999
time: 00:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 12:28 Visit Victor Galis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
Isn't it possible they could gain ground?


When stability drops (but not to the point of revolution), who do you honestly think will gain ground: authoritarian clerics or reformers who have limited power and have lost their steam.

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
Warlord
USA
Jul 2002
time: 22:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 13:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote:
Originally posted by Victor Galis


When stability drops (but not to the point of revolution), who do you honestly think will gain ground: authoritarian clerics or reformers who have limited power and have lost their steam.


Depends on who gets blamed. Destabilization usually means those who in power will take the heat. The West was quite successful in destabilizing the Eastern block during the 1980s. Just one reformer at leadership position was sufficient to turn the entire commie world upside down.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 13:07
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How exactly did the west destablize the eastern bloc?

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
Warlord
USA
Jul 2002
time: 22:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 13:25
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
How exactly did the west destablize the eastern bloc?


"Mr Gorbachev, please tear down this wall!", dissidents, BBC, pictures of supermarket vs breadline, and Mercedes vs Trabant.

Sikander is offline Sikander
King
Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 13:43
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Washington Warmongering Undermining Iranian Reform Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by Ramo

Shrub's policy towards Iran really has been totally disastrous. As long as the US is seen as a threat to Iran, the conservatives can prevent any changes by the reformists.


I don't agree, yet. What's happening in Iran has been going on for a long time, well before Bush's administration. We've seen the failure of democracy in Iran, as it is now clear that it is run by an oligarchy which doesn't give a damn about democracy. In fact the reform movement has played an important part in the operations of the mullahs, by disguising the true attitudes and actions of the regime. Thus the bad boys in Iran support terror on an industrial scale and pursue nuclear weapons and missles while the Iranian on the street as well as the international community get caught up in the melodrama in parliment. But it's the mullahs who write that script, and they only trot out poor Khatami when they have to explain something to their people or the rest of the world. I doubt that he really knows what is going on half the time.

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 13:47
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
"Mr Gorbachev, please tear down this wall!", dissidents, BBC, pictures of supermarket vs breadline, and Mercedes vs Trabant.


We didn't make dissidents. Apart from that, right. We were essentially just sitting there, which was sufficient to demonstrate the crass inferiority of communism and see it rot away.

So why would you think active destabilisation is suddenly a brilliant idea now?

HershOstropoler is offline HershOstropoler
Settler

Nov 2002
time: 06:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 13:52
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Re: Washington Warmongering Undermining Iranian Reform Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by Sikander

Thus the bad boys in Iran support terror on an industrial scale and pursue nuclear weapons and missles...


Well, why shouldn't they? If it's ok for Pakistan, what right does the US administration have to ***** about Iran? If it's ok for the US admin to blatantly violate international law, why should Iran give a ****?

If we take out legal and moral issues though, the Bushies have to make up their mind. Either they take out Iran's nuclear program by force, or they offer Iran something in exchage for scrapping it. Currently it looks like they really think they can talk the Mullahs out of it.

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
Warlord
USA
Jul 2002
time: 22:28
  Old Post 28-05-2003 13:59
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler


We didn't make dissidents. Apart from that, right. We were essentially just sitting there, which was sufficient to demonstrate the crass inferiority of communism and see it rot away.

So why would you think active destabilisation is suddenly a brilliant idea now?


You think there is a lack of dissidents in Iran?

Do you believe that "destabilization" actually means war?

Roland, you need to be more creative.

 
Pages (5): [ 1   2   3   4     >> ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:28.
Apolyton Time is 00:28.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0518 seconds (92.00% PHP - 8.00% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net