28-05-2003 23:42									#61
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Why does being more diverse make a culture stronger?

	28-05-2003 23:54									#62
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Cause it shows the culture can absorb changes and adapt. Deep fried battered fish was originally brought to the UK by Jewish migrants and now, as Fish and Chips, is one of the classic British stereotypes. Tikka Masala is undergoing the same transformation for "foreign" food to "British" food. The UK took in hip-hop and rap from America and has produced uniquely British versions (We love you Ms Dynamite!). The English language steals from other languages all the time and has become more diverse and beautiful for it.

British culture is a creation of the merging of Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Norman French, Anglo-Saxon, etc cultural influences. Why would adding Indian, East Asian, African, etc influences dilute British culture? It would just enrich it.

Your technological and cultural uniqueness will be added to our own. You will be assimiliated. Resistance is futile.

	28-05-2003 23:55									#63
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All peaceful immigrants should be allowed into the country.

	29-05-2003 00:16									#64
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quote: Deep fried battered fish was originally brought to the UK by Jewish migrants and now, as Fish and Chips, is one of the classic British stereotypes.

Theives!

I have no problem with having a culutural MIX, but I am not a multiculturalist, i.e. "we're different, but we love each other"

	29-05-2003 00:25									#65
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Why not? I respect differences in other cultures, I enjoy them, and I celebrate them. I think that in this environment, different facets of culture can adopt each other, and an amalgam appears. The culture takes the differences, the good parts from each other, and produces a more diverse, more varied, and thus more dynmanic and enjoyable (for want of a better word) culture, thanks to intrigration, exposure to others etc.

	29-05-2003 00:30									#66
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"In my culture, it's custumary to bash the **** out of gay people. Let's celebrate our differences".

	29-05-2003 00:38									#67
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Therein lies a real problem. What happens when immigrants' culture rejects a core tenet of yours?

-Arrian

	29-05-2003 00:41									#68
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Then one has difference, which takes longer to assimilate, but it does. It takes time to integrate, and there are short-term difficulties, but with time the two cultures will adapt to one another, and merge into one. In the interim, if a culture has an element which runs contrary to another, as long as it is not illegal, then one can keep a degree of separation until they further adapt.

I am not suggesting apartheid or segregation based on those differences, but rather, one can have two distinct communities that interact, but not entirely. The interaction will increase with time.

	29-05-2003 00:46									#69
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"In my culture, it's custumary to bash the **** out of gay people"

Why? Is there any rational reason for that, or is it merely based on prejudices. As a culture, one might find that if gay people and heterosexual people interacted, they would learn more about each other, and learn that they are equally human, and then see ethnocentric barriers broken down, and acceptance.

Azazel: What is your alternative?

	29-05-2003 00:51									#70
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quote: Then one has difference, which takes longer to assimilate, but it does. It takes time to integrate, and there are short-term difficulties, but with time the two cultures will adapt to one another, and merge into one. In the interim, if a culture has an element which runs contrary to another, as long as it is not illegal, then one can keep a degree of separation until they further adapt. I am not suggesting apartheid or segregation based on those differences, but rather, one can have two distinct communities that interact, but not entirely. The interaction will increase with time.

I just said it was a problem. Problems can be dealt with.

You mention assimilation. Well, some people don't want to assimilate. So what do you do with a group that 1) shares very different values, some of them directly opposed to the core values of your community; and 2) does not wish to assimilate?

I guess you wait 'em out, and get to their children via public education.

-Arrian

	29-05-2003 00:54									#71
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"So what do you do with a group that 1) shares very different values, some of them directly opposed to the core values of your community; and 2) does not wish to assimilate?"

You give it time and understanding. If people dont want to be part of a society, they dont have to, no different to you, me, or anyone who lives in a relatively free country. As long as theyre not breaking the law, ideally, they can do or not do anything they want.

	29-05-2003 00:58									#72
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Ah, The Law.

What if the argument is then made that The Law is dicriminatory against their culture (see the news story about the Muslim woman suing the government because they are saying she can't wear a veil in a driver's license photo)?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but it seems to me that it's not as simple as "give it time and understanding." It takes two to tango.

-Arrian

	29-05-2003 01:03									#73
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quote: Why? Is there any rational reason for that, or is it merely based on prejudices.

Guess.

My Alternative: get all the kids go to secular schools, that would teach them good values, like equality of chance, respect for other human beings, fraternity, striving for excellence, honesty, self-reliance, desire for success of the entire humanity, etc..

Persecute any people that would carry out actions that are against the law, but are the way according to their beliefs.

If parents insist on teaching their kids things that are obviously wrong, but part of their culture like "women should be subjegated", etc. steps will be taken to stop this.



Melting pot! With one culture, it's easier to all humans to connect between themselves as individuals.

	29-05-2003 01:03									#74
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Absolutely. One assumes that because one moves to a nation, one is prepared to live in that nation, by the laws of that nation, and in general, that has happened.

Im saying that integration is a natural process that will occur when two peoples are not physically separated. Since I feel this is a positive thing, I believe we should encourage it.

	29-05-2003 01:04									#75
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Well, you see, by saying "integration" you mean that YOU will have to live by some of THEIR values.

	29-05-2003 01:33									#76
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" Persecute any people that would carry out actions that are against the law, but are the way according to their beliefs.

If parents insist on teaching their kids things that are obviously wrong, but part of their culture like "women should be subjegated", etc. steps will be taken to stop this"

Ah!! Was wondering how long it would take for someone to use this thread as a means to get at Islam. If its not illegal, and all sides agree to it (the women and those who would oppress them), then it can happen. Whatever we think as another culture is irrelevant to then, and as it is not the law, we have no business in forcing our beliefs on others.

With regards to crimes, we should prosecute the perpetrators, not the entire community. The community should be helped so they do not generate such terrorists. I take it you are referring to the Palestinians?

	29-05-2003 01:38									#77
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It doesnt mean we have to live by their values, it means we can choose to, and it would be socially acceptable (as horrific that concept is to me ).

For example, my interest in buddism would not have been acceptable, or at least, would have been looked on as curious and eccentric 150 years ago, but today, it is not, because buddhism and its concepts are relatively mainstream in society. That is not to say that one has to be mainstream, but im sure you catch my drift... gotta go watch tv....

Last edited by Whaleboy on 29-05-2003 at 01:45

	29-05-2003 01:47									#78
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The BNP is a creature partly born out of bad policy decisions. Often it's been the case that immigration policy takes no account of cultural norms and thus admits people who have radically different customs and mores than the locals. This can create a lot of trouble.

In countries like the United States and Canada which are composed almost wholly of immigrants, people from different cultures tend to mix very well.

In countries where there has been a long standing cultural norm connected to the indigenous inhabitants or a well established colonising group it is harder to get a multicultural society proper going because the locals have the idea that it is their country so it's their way or the highway - hence the vitriol at those who won't integrate.

In New Zealand, which is a reasonably diverse country everyone gets on pretty well. However, there has been a lot of complaining about excessive Asian immigration over the past 10-15 years. One complaint is that the immigrants keep to themselves and don't integrate well into New Zealand society another is that they are terrible drivers. The first complaint is somewhat justified, the second wholly so. Many of these immigrants don't speak English at all well and this hampers their integration into New Zealand society.

What's bizarrely funny is that there are a lot of Chinese people in New Zealand who are the descendents of those who came during the gold rush 150 years ago. These people are wholly integrated into New Zealand society and more than once I've heard some of them unselfconsiously complain about "these bloody Asians" who are ruining the country.

	29-05-2003 02:38									#79
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Immigration into Europe is a topic that interests me. As I understand, Europe is undergoing a large influx of Islamic immigrants. Islamic immigrants come in at a high rate and then have a birth rate substantially higher then the native population. I have heard in some cases Islamic immigrants integrate poorly and reject the secularism around them. In Britain there was a case where a hard-line Islamic group dedicated to seeting up an Islamic State in Britain orchestrated a suicide bombing in Israel. In France I know there have been some cases where Islamic youths have attacked the country's Jewish population. I think the European countries, with some interest in preserving a free and secular state, may wish to formulate policies so as to avoid ever having an Islamic majority sometime down the road.

"Why? Is there any rational reason for that, or is it merely based on prejudices. "

For Moslems they have the Koran, which the Islamic religion universally teaches is the absolute truth revealed words of Allah.

	29-05-2003 02:41									#80
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quote: another is that they are terrible drivers.

Man, if that was a case for deportation, you should soon ship your women over .

	29-05-2003 02:49									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: another is that they are terrible drivers. Man, if that was a case for deportation, you should soon ship your women over .

It isn't really funny. Any time you see some lunatic going 50 km/h on the open highway or moronically cutting people off, chance is it's an Asian immigrant. Apparently it is the norm to drive like a nutter where they come from.

	29-05-2003 02:51									#82
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It depends on the country. In Korea and Japan people drove like an old lady going to church; slow, slow, slow.

	29-05-2003 02:53									#83
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quote: Any time you see some lunatic going 50 km/h on the open highway

That doesn't seem very fast to me, Agathon. Unless you have a different defintion of 'highway'?

Oh, and around here (New Jersey), the people moronically cutting others off are usually New Yorkers .

	29-05-2003 03:01									#84
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I had a lovely post that the server ate...I'll try to remember most of it:

Western culture has a set of core values that is deeply seductive and appealing to aspects of the human condition. The adoption of these core values is part of the cultural contract between the already present Western culture and the arriving/emerging cultures. So appealing are these core values that cultural beliefs that disagree with them are often discarded, if not by the first generation than by the second, because such integration represents a better long term cultural adaptation than isolation does.

Liberty. Freedom. Democracy. The ability to think independently and speak one's own mind. Tolerance and equality. Whether you believe these values to be God-given or not (I go with not), they do form a common link tying together cultures.

However, I will admit I do worry at times about poor integration. It's easier in countries built on immigration, such as the USA and Canada. The basic idea is that you're trading one set of values for another when you move there. In European countries, there isn't the tradition of being seen as a nation built built from immigration. Sometimes, we should stress more that we have a set of core values that must be agreed to as part of the social-cultural contract. That applies to all citizens, whether racist BNP fascists or homophobic, anti-semetic Muslim extremists.

I regard your average British Muslim, moderate and tolerant, as more British than a BNP member. The BNP member has rejected the core values of society while the British Muslim has embraced them.

	29-05-2003 04:03									#85
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Agreed, although I do hesitate to say that a culture is more suited to aspects of the human condition than other, due to environmental issues. For example, nomadic Arabs have a certain culture that is best adapted for that location, people and way of life. Ours is best adapted here. The question is, how can one make a culture more appealing to the human condition? It is a sliding scale within a culture, but does not necessarily invoke an entirely different society in itself, in other words, a person at age 4 60 years later at 64, is the same person (for all intents and purposes).

	29-05-2003 04:23									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Any time you see some lunatic going 50 km/h on the open highway That doesn't seem very fast to me, Agathon. Unless you have a different defintion of 'highway'?

They are slow drivers (limit is 100) which is often more dangerous than speeding: especially on New Zealand's small winding roads (if I showed you a picture of NZ State Highway 1, you'd wet yourself laughing)

quote: Oh, and around here (New Jersey), the people moronically cutting others off are usually New Yorkers .

Yeah - death to NY and its snobby inhabitants!

I found a pic of SH1 - this is what it looks like for the most part (there is a dual carriageway just out of Auckland, but almost all of it looks like this). Can any other people boast such a grand major road?

	29-05-2003 04:25									#87
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You can have no idea how much I want to take a suped up mini cooper down that road right now!!!

	29-05-2003 04:48									#88
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quote: Originally posted by elijah You can have no idea how much I want to take a suped up mini cooper down that road right now!!!

That would fit right in. My last car before I came to Canada in 99 was a 1980 Toyota Corona (like the pic below - except mine was brown with a beige vinyl roof - :P)

Best car I ever drove (previously I had a 1971 Hillman Hunter).

	29-05-2003 04:51									#89
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You're all with the pictures today Agathon!! No offense, but it looks like a 1988 Ford Escort!!

What would also be good would be a 1973 Porsche 911 Carrarra RS 2.7L.

	29-05-2003 04:52									#90
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Was it 73 or 77? I forget, I wasnt born!