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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:28
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i got sick in my stomach reading elijah's posts especially that one where he broke down the BNP's policies... i'm not playing... physically sick...
but this took the cake...
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Also a waste to society as these people can be re-habbed. |
You ****ing try to rehab someone who raped and tortured a 12 year old girl then slit her throat...
People saying it's immoral to let the gov't kill! it's ****ing twice as immoral to let that son of a ***** live a full life and experience the beauty of the sun and blue skies... the feeling of a beating heart and air in his lungs... all while the innocent was so wrongly robbed of such greatness... THAT IS IMMORAL! THAT IS NOT HUMAN RIGHTS!
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"You ****ing try to rehab someone who raped and tortured a 12 year old girl then slit her throat"
In order to do that, one clearly has some degree of mental illness, so it does not help anyone, barring the victims family who get a sense of revenge (which is hardly a good basis for a modern justice system), to lock them up in prison to merely rot. One should instead use psychiatric treatment to cure that illness, and turn that person into a productive member of society.
"People saying it's immoral to let the gov't kill! it's ****ing twice as immoral to let that son of a ***** live a full life and experience the beauty of the sun and blue skies... the feeling of a beating heart and air in his lungs... all while the innocent was so wrongly robbed of such greatness... THAT IS IMMORAL! THAT IS NOT HUMAN RIGHTS! "
In this hypothetical situation, the innocent is already dead, taking the killer through hell and back is not going to bring the victim back to life. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is not a reasonable, logical or justified basis for a system of justice, Sure the stick must be used as well as the carrot, but simply defaulting to the stick is hardly a productive way to go about things. This is not the 12th century, and I like to think we have a greater sensibility than then, in order to solve such problems to society as immoral criminals.
To ruin someones life, instead of attempting to repair the obvious damage that caused them to perpetrate such acts, that is immoral, as it succumbs to the vigilante element of emotional victims, who, with all respect to their loss, are not in an objective or informed place to decide over the life of the accused individual.
The foul langauge of your post supports my argument that such subjective "morality" is a highly emotional, and thus illogical, irrational and unreasoned way of solving such a difficult problem to society.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:28
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Elijah:
I am all for 'rehabilatation' of economic criminals (drug dealers, muggers, etc) and even spur of the moment killers... but anyone who pre-meditated torture, rape, and murder of a lady is beyond rehabiliation... i dont care what you say... i dont see how it is possible to fix that person...
furthermore, it does not respond to the great injustice of such a vile person living a full life (even having freedom as you seem to allude to!) while an innocent victim suffered so much and has been denied the beauty of living...
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"Elijah most places have given up on rehabing serious criminals."
Mainly for political reasons, and because they did not devote enough resources to it. It should also be integrated with the education system to catch problem students at a young age. It didnt work due to technical failings, not conceptual failings.
It didnt work for the same reasons.
"That's why most people in America now have a "throw the book at'em" mentality because locking up those people who act like animals works and has resulted in the lowest crime rates in two generations"
In general, crime in some inner cities is as high as ever, and meantime, America with something like 4% of the worlds population has 25% of the worlds prison population.
"i dont care what you say... i dont see how it is possible to fix that person..."
I see it the other way round. Economic killers and criminals do it for greed, which is unfortunately a human instinct. As such, they are least likely to be cured.
I am a libertarian, and a very peaceful man. Anytime I get violent thoughts, something in my mind switches, and I instantly reject the thought, and feel a little sick at the prospect. Someone who harbours and acts on such violent thoughts, in other words a cold blooded killer/rapist etc, obviously doesnt have that switch that the rest of us have, that stops us from killing. All we need to do is reenable that switch. Psychology is a very young science, it is making fantastic progress, and soon, it is reasonable to say that most if not all "killing illnesses" for want of a better phrase can be cured.
"furthermore, it does not respond to the great injustice of such a vile person living a full life"
Whats wrong with that? They killed, they were convicted, they had freedom taken away, they may have been shamed (although I think that is immature and shuold stop but thats another issue), they have been "fixed". I see no reason, other than the subjective whim of the victim and their perpetual desire for revenge, why that person cannot live a full life. He was convicted of a crime, served his time during which he recovered from the illness that made him kill, and is otherwise a completely normal (for all intents and purposes), functional member of society. You going to judge them for what they did in the past, what they are never going to do again, or what they can do in the future to make amends. He would also have to live with what he has done, a punishment that nothing any state can offer will come close to. If he has recovered, he will feel it.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"i'll tell you how to cure a drug dealer... give him the education and a job that would make him money... no need to be a dealer then"
When you have the contacts and ability to make more money in a week than most do in a year by selling drugs, then one generally takes the risk of being caught for that kind of gain. It is greed. Nothing mental, nothing out of the ordinary, just a little too much greed, and perhaps a little to much disregard for society and authority.
" a serial rapist though... ever think he's just a perverted, no good bastard who is willing to torment a lady just so he can get some *****? i dont like this twisting of him into some kind of victim of chemical inbalances"
Why not? Can you provide a better explanation? Is it something that people randomly do? If so, why have I never had the urge to rape someone, or most law abiding people.
It is caused by a chemical imbalance, and once people get over the simplistic notion of them being "bad people", then we can actually get down to the nitty gritty and address this issue, instead of taking the simplistic, flawed approach of sweeping them under the proverbial rug!
Ultimately, I'd rather see men working, bring productive, and being happy, despite their pasts, than being wasted and miserable, simply to please some desire for revenge. If they have been fixed, then they can work to redeem themselves in their minds and in societies eyes. Revenge wont bring a murder victim back, it is a fallacy. Lets not base our justice systems on such a nation.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:28
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Elijah:
quote:
When you have the contacts and ability to make more money in a week than most do in a year by selling drugs, then one generally takes the risk of being caught for that kind of gain. It is greed. Nothing mental, nothing out of the ordinary, just a little too much greed, and perhaps a little to much disregard for society and authority. |
how many drug dealers do you know?
i know one who is dealing so he can afford to put his sister in college and i ain't playing... some others just don't see no alternative. no one wants to work some minimum wage job... thats why all we need to do is bring some more jobs in and fix up the education system and the appeal of being a dealer would be less...
I know... i've thought about dealing. when you got your ribs showing, you think about that **** and it has an appeal only because you see no alternative in these gutted neighbourhoods... all you see is hundreds of people eager to buy drugs... motioning with their fingers at their mouths trying to act slick and you just shake your head no, knowing that all you need is some weed mixed with some oregano to get you some quick dollars... ultimately, though, i realize that if i stay straight and struggle through college and stick with recording songs, i'll be better for it.
do not talk about something you know nothing about
thanks
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:28
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quote:
The idea that white people will become a minority is both misguided and ludicrous. Immigration is so high at the moment because of turbulent international conditions, following the end of the cold war, a polarisation of wealth distribution and the perceived receptiveness of Britain/Europe. None of these factors, and others, are permanent.
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Perhaps they are not pernament, but don't make me laugh by saying that Algeria will be as rich as France in several years... The differences between Europe and neighbour areas will stay for decades if not centuries.
That's why I think we should try to make them change faster, not allowing great waves of immigration.
quote:
By that time, minorities should become established in the British community. The idea of perceiving them as a different race would be like blondes perceiving brunettes as a different race. Its purely subjective, geocentric and ethnocentric.
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Perhaps, but what makes You sure they'll be established in the society? That's a question.
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All peaceful immigrants should be allowed into the country.
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Until they find a job, they'll have to be supported by the state. Why should people pay for that?
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Why? Is there any rational reason for that, or is it merely based on prejudices. As a culture, one might find that if gay people and heterosexual people interacted, they would learn more about each other, and learn that they are equally human, and then see ethnocentric barriers broken down, and acceptance.
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How naive
I believe that homosexuality is condemned in the Old Testament. What does it mean? If You really believe that it is the word of the God that You should obey, You should condemn it too. And there's no other possibility.
quote:
Persecute any people that would carry out actions that are against the law, but are the way according to their beliefs.
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And now imagine that religious people win the elections and force your children ito religious school to teach them
good - it's just the same in fact. It's a problem to me and I don't know what to think about it.
I think You are right, but I know that people really believing in their religion, if they really do, should have something against it.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"do not talk about something you know nothing about"
You of course assume that I dont know any drug dealers. Your assumption is incorrect. I recognise your interpretation of why they do it, and of course, one changes the sociological conditions that cause it, problem solved. Of course thats more of a preventative than a cure, but if you can amend a convicted dealer by education rather than prison, then that is all good. Needless to say, the allure of drug dealing is the major factor at creating big time dealers (the ones I was referring to, rather than petty criminals). It is simply a matter of greed.
However, there is nothing to suggest that my alternative to meaningless, punitive revenge-based, vigilante-like justice wont work for a completely different class of criminal, the rapist, the cold-blooded murderer etc. I am arguing that it is a mental condition. They are not "evil" people, somehow posessed by Satan, because no such thing exists. As such, it is entirely possible to cure them. The end result (a productive member of society who can pay his way and contribute back, in his mind and society compensating for the crime), is preferable to the alternative, which could be a dead man, or someone rotting away in jail at the publics expense, not contributing, not making anything of himself, all for the sake of "revenge". I like to think that we have a greater sensibility since the middle ages.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"Perhaps they are not pernament, but don't make me laugh by saying that Algeria will be as rich as France in several years... The differences between Europe and neighbour areas will stay for decades if not centuries."
The question is, will the disparity be so much that it will force people to emmigrate? Perhaps for a few decades. It is most likely that it will change within my lifetime, which isnt a long period of time in terms of demographics.
"That's why I think we should try to make them change faster, not allowing great waves of immigration."
We should certainly help to accelerate through peaceful means, the economies and the suffering (often caused by us) in the source nations. However, I do not see a connection with these "great waves of immigration". What an individual does is down to that individual.
"Perhaps, but what makes You sure they'll be established in the society? That's a question"
Indeed it is, and a very prudent question. What makes me sure is that one has two communities not physically separated by miles of ocean or land, living in close proximity. As time goes on, the interaction will increase, and ultimately, they will be one community. Im not saying that this time wont be turbulent, but like all things, the wider trend will be closer integration. For example, look at the difference between 1st generation black and asian immigrants in britain, and their children and grandchildren. The 2nd and 3rd generations are part of british culture, british society. It aids our evolution as a culture.
"Until they find a job, they'll have to be supported by the state. Why should people pay for that?"
Because soon they will find a job (assuming that we let them, but then that is down to us and not them), from which they can pay income tax, and contribute back to society. You pay them benefits for a few months at best, theyre working and paying taxes for years. Meantime, they can be contributing to society, the actual jobs they can do are vital. Already in Britain, they are prepared to take on jobs others wont do, but it is also increasing the net amount of brainpower in this society, increasing our rate of progress.
"I believe that homosexuality is condemned in the Old Testament. What does it mean? If You really believe that it is the word of the God that You should obey, You should condemn it too. And there's no other possibility"
If you really believe that the bible, the torah etc is the true word of god, and not a human interpretation, then you will also believe that women are not deserving of equal rights and various other illogical nonsense. A text writtenf for a desert culture thousands of years ago has little relevance in society today.
Nonetheless, if people choose to live by that, then that is their perogative and I do not claim their views are less valid than mine. If they choose not to interact, then again that is their perogative, but as time goes on, views will generally soften, and as a community, they will become more accepting. Whether the stubborn elements have to get old and die before that happens, I dont know, but one way or another, it will happen.
With regards to the law, all semetic religions that I know of permit a breaking of the law in its current format. The question is whether that is active. One should not persecute an entire religion, an entire community, simply because a defining feature of that community is used to justify acts against the law. Its a slipperly slope of different interpretations of the law. The danger is the people can get the same attitudes towards ethnic minorities as the Germans did in the 30's towards the Jews.
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Worthingtons
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Pride Park,Derby
Jan 2002
time: 05:28
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lol, Well I'll do my best not to get too drawn into this blatent Troll.
Relax immigration and asylum laws, what a funny man, I might have taken your post seriously if you hadnt have said that.
I like what Albert is saying I must say, so what if he is sticking up for the BNP, is political freedom a Crime??
Cheers
Matt
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"AFAIK, albert represents my views the best in this thread"
If you'd ever seen a BNP conference, and the amount of anti-semitic bull that the people there support and express, then I'm sure you'd change your mind.
They on the surface are not racist, but that is just PR to appear more acceptable and more mainstream. If they were outwardly racist, no-one would take them seriously. Of course, the racists elements in the party are as strong as ever, and if god forbid they every get into a position of power, those elements would come out.
Like Lincoln said, "any man can stand adversity, if you want to test him, put him in power"... ok I paraphrased there, I have an abstract memory today  
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:28
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I didn't read the whole of this at all, but what the hell is that "They're stealing our jobs" thing? Who is this "they"? aren't all of these people different individuals? How can they steal your job? Do they throw you out of your office and pretend you were never there? I don't get this.
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spartak
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Doh! Is it the BNP?
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