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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"Just because the Sun says something, doesn't make it true"
I will never trust page 3 again
I have yet to see a decent argument against immigration in a nation, except illegal immigrants, where there is an argument for sending them back. I prefer the idea of keeping them here, on the grounds that we need them, and it is putting them under more pressure, but as they are illegal, arguing over "punishments" is largely irrelevant here. Proper asylum is imo critical morally, and important to western states today (whose young thus working population is falling), and also offers tremendous opportunities for cultural enrichment, diversification, and acceptance of others. It helps to break peope out of their closed, complacent minds, and think in a more open, liberal, wide and accepting manner. This would be a good thing.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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" So you don't accept that they take jobes that British people take"
No! They fill positions that many "natives" for want of a better word will not fill. The idea of stealing jobs is fallacious. They dont invade yuor office and throw you out of the window!! In the employment market, a firm will ideally choose the best person for the job, if that happens to be an immigrant, then so be it, it is better for that firm to have the wider choice.
It is not stealing, it is merely competition, which happens! Besides, as you have pointed out to me before, there is very low unemployment in this nation, implying that there is employment for all, thus the claim that they are stealing British jobs, which incidentally the immigrants are perfectly entitled to as long as they are legit, is misguided at best!
"take money off the government with the NHS and welfare?"
As soon as they can work, they can pay that money back via tax, and then some, whilst contributing to society and the economy in the process.
" I do see reasons for closing the borders"
As do I, but Britain is not full up or indeed economically struggling with the issue yet! 
"To you, yes. Others may feel differently. They may not like it"
Which is an entirely different matter. I based that on the assumption that breaking people out of their closed, complacent minds, and thinking in a more open, liberal, wide and accepting manner is a good thing. If you would like me to reason that for you, I will gladly start another thread, PM you, msn you, or show you any number of my articles on the subject. However, that is irrelevant here.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
No! They fill positions that many "natives" for want of a better word will not fill. The idea of stealing jobs is fallacious. They dont invade yuor office and throw you out of the window!! In the employment market, a firm will ideally choose the best person for the job, if that happens to be an immigrant, then so be it, it is better for that firm to have the wider choice. |
Yes it's better for the firm. If they take jobs then they are jobs that could be filled by "natives". To some people, that is a big deal, especially those that want 0 unemployment.
quote:
Originally posted by elijah
It is not stealing, it is merely competition, which happens! |
I never said it was stealing, I said they take jobs that British people could take. We don't have 100% emplyment of British people, thus you could argue that we should not emply immigrants until we do.
quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Besides, as you have pointed out to me before, there is very low unemployment in this nation, implying that there is employment for all |
Not in the slightest. There is relatively low unemployment, there is not employment for all.
quote:
Originally posted by elijah
which incidentally the immigrants are perfectly entitled to |
In your opinion. In my opinion. Not in many others opinions.
quote:
Originally posted by elijah
As soon as they can work, they can pay that money back via tax, and then some, whilst contributing to society and the economy in the process. |
True, a position that could have been filled by a British person. The BNP simply want 0 unemployment before they allow immigrants to work. While I think that's stupid, many agree with it.
quote:
Originally posted by elijah
I have yet to see a decent argument against immigration in a nation |
quote:
Originally posted by elijah
" I do see reasons for closing the borders"
As do I |
quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Which is an entirely different matter. I based that on the assumption that breaking people out of their closed, complacent minds, and thinking in a more open, liberal, wide and accepting manner is a good thing. |
Thjat is if you are more open minded. You want less controls, they want more. Why does that make you open minded? Neither of you see the others point, or accept them. That is fine, but I don't see that as beign open minded. I see open minded as people willing to listen to both sides, regardless of which side they choose.
Of course, this is almost all devil's advocate. I don't like the BNP, I don't want 100% employment and I do not believe in fewer legal immigrants out of extar controls (just removing illegal immigrants). However that is not to say I don't see the other sides points.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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"To some people, that is a big deal, especially those that want 0 unemployment"
Tell me, as an economist, does an economy not need a level on unemployment?
" I never said it was stealing, I said they take jobs that British people could take. We don't have 100% emplyment of British people, thus you could argue that we should not emply immigrants until we do"
What about the moral issues? Economics is hardly the sole basis for running a nation. Otherwise, we'd all end up like spineless, drone like automatons, serving the state, and having our lives dictated by quotas, targets, specific groups, forecasts, and the belief that demand vs supply is the eternel struggle.
"Not in many others opinions"
Too bad, my opinion, my right to express it and back it up. Too bad if others cant or wont for whatever reason.
"While I think that's stupid, many agree with it"
So why are we debating it? It makes little sense, people can think what they want, I will still critique them to the best of my ability if I think they are in error.
"Why does that make you open minded? Neither of you see the others point, or accept them"
I see the other side, and, objectively, I see their right to express them. However, I have my views. Does my not taking others views as my own, and instead arguing with them, make me less open minded. What would be less open minded would be me not listening to them, or ignoring them, neither of which I am doing, instead I am merely listening to them, and breaking them down. That does not make me closed-minded, and I like to think it makes me more open minded, in the sense that it enables me to formulate new ideas and express, communicate and mould them relative to other ideas.
" see open minded as people willing to listen to both sides, regardless of which side they choose"
As I am doing. I have my view, which I am expressing. Does that mean I do not listen to others or take their views on board to strengthen or weaken my own? Of course not! Who would have thought that I am advocating my subjective and you are advocating an objective (relative to my subjective... lets not get into this again )
"Of course, this is almost all devil's advocate"
Goes without saying with you!!  joke!! 
I do see the other points, but being open minded does not force me to accept them, or agree with them. Moreover, it allows me to feel freer to question them. Does one have to participate in an action to accept it, and its validity? Of course not!! Look at the issue of heterosexual people accepting homosexuality.
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Worthingtons
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Pride Park,Derby
Jan 2002
time: 05:28
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quote:
Why not? Instead of using rhetoric, why dont you explain your argument, instead of merely stating opposition that adds nothing. |
Because I assumed this thread was created as a Troll rather than you actually being serious , but on a more in-depth read thru it seems you actually are serious.
There is already a big problem with Immigrants/Asylum seekers here, so much so that the next election could be won or lost on it, because the vast majority of people are now fed up with it, why?
Well I would say the fact they live in isolated communities, do not embrace the national culture, cause problems and turn to voilence in some areas (anyone remember those Oldham figures from a couple of years back where over 60% of racially motivated attacks were by Asians yet they accounted for approx 15% of the population?). I'm not sure about them stealing people's Jobs, but if you as an Englishman wanted to go into the corner-shop business then indeed you're f**ked .
Until they start to adapt better, and also stop preaching hatred against the Country they are now in (Yes I know not all of them do, but some do!) I will strongly oppose relaxing asylum laws. I also think we need to be careful where we get our Immigrants from too.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:28
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Heresson:
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If You really believe that it is the word of the God that You should obey, You should condemn it too. And there's no other possibility.
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Well said. Now for the detractors:
TheStinger:
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Yeah and people used to say the word of God justified slavery and mass genocide, try making your own mind up.
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Indeed. They had too much faith in what other people said about the bible, and not enough time spent reading what it actually says.
Elijah:
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If you really believe that the bible, the torah etc is the true word of god, and not a human interpretation, then you will also believe that women are not deserving of equal rights and various other illogical nonsense. A text writtenf for a desert culture thousands of years ago has little relevance in society today.
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First off, why select a username of a prominent Hebrew prophet? Secondly, please show me where the bible teaches that women do not deserve equal rights. Without evidence, I am forced to dismiss your statement as mere rhetoric.
Finally, where a book is written has very little bearing on the relevance the book to the readers. For example, using your standard would mean that literary classics written in England, or especially, Ancient Greece, cannot resonate today.
However, just as people absorb Sophocles, or enjoy Shakespeare, we also see people earnestly study the Bible even though parts were written close to 3000 years ago. For no other reason then because the words speak to them.
One personal example, is the passages in Ecclesiastes, an old man's narrative of his life's passing, how people chase after the wind. Try reading the book before you cast aspersions on the relevancy.
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:28
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I suppose I would count as one of the immigrants that the BNP wouldn't mind hanging on to (Dutch, well educated etc.).
The whole rehabilitation idea is completely not thought through. Anyone been in hospital lately? Almost all the lower rank nurses are East Asian, loads of doctors are Eastern European or from the Indian subcontinent. What would happen if you all "repatriate" them? Yes, the healthcare system would collapse and die. The UK, and most of Western Europe with it, needs immigration, and personally I'd rather have hardworking people who are looking to enhance their chances in life than the general type of people that vote for the BNP, who look to blame their misery on others, instead of accepting that they're stupid inbreds who couldn't be asked working in school and now blame the fact that they're burger flippers and not doctors, on the immigrants that are in these positions.
I agree with some of the more rightwing statements here though. If you immigrate to a country, you should learn the language as soon as possible, and if possible adhere to the societal customs. Also if you wish to come to a country, you have to respect its laws, and not endeavour to overthrow the present system and replace it with your own ideal of a religious state based on a set of obscure religious laws.
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Park Avenue
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Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
I have yet to see a decent argument against immigration in a nation |
I hope Shi Huangdi doesn't mind me re-porting his excellent contribution.
"As I understand, Europe is undergoing a large influx of Islamic immigrants. Islamic immigrants come in at a high rate and then have a birth rate substantially higher then the native population. I have heard in some cases Islamic immigrants integrate poorly and reject the secularism around them. In Britain there was a case where a hard-line Islamic group dedicated to seeting up an Islamic State in Britain orchestrated a suicide bombing in Israel. In France I know there have been some cases where Islamic youths have attacked the country's Jewish population. I think the European countries, with some interest in preserving a free and secular state, may wish to formulate policies so as to avoid ever having an Islamic majority sometime down the road."
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for cultural enrichment |
Why is it when we accept other cultures to the West, it is seen as enriching and diversifying, yet when American culture spreads, it is seen as a plague by those very same people who claim to like enrichment and diversification?
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diversification, and acceptance of others. It helps to break peope out of their closed, complacent minds, and think in a more open, liberal, wide and accepting manner. This would be a good thing. |
I might be more open and accepting if we weren't bringing in people who five years down the line will be tempted to slam a plane against Buckhingham Palace.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:28
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The question is, will the disparity be so much that it will force people to emmigrate? Perhaps for a few decades. It is most likely that it will change within my lifetime, which isnt a long period of time in terms of demographics.
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Up till then, there'll be millions of immigrants already in your state.
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We should certainly help to accelerate through peaceful means, the economies and the suffering (often caused by us) in the source nations. However, I do not see a connection with these "great waves of immigration". What an individual does is down to that individual.
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I disagree. If economy is growing, and people are happy where they live, there's no need for emmigration.
How are sufferings of poorer states caused by the richer ones? I don't think it is like that. It's not Europe that made Africa poor. It's always been.
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Indeed it is, and a very prudent question. What makes me sure is that one has two communities not physically separated by miles of ocean or land, living in close proximity. As time goes on, the interaction will increase, and ultimately, they will be one community.
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That's naive; Immigrants tend to live in one quater. People can live years not getting to know the language or habits of their new state. And it will be them to bring up their children - the school won't change that.
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Im not saying that this time wont be turbulent, but like all things, the wider trend will be closer integration. For example, look at the difference between 1st generation black and asian immigrants in britain, and their children and grandchildren. The 2nd and 3rd generations are part of british culture, british society. It aids our evolution as a culture.
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Why do You call it "evolution". Is society any better only because it is multiple?
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Because soon they will find a job (assuming that we let them, but then that is down to us and not them), from which they can pay income tax, and contribute back to society. You pay them benefits for a few months at best, theyre working and paying taxes for years. Meantime, they can be contributing to society, the actual jobs they can do are vital. Already in Britain, they are prepared to take on jobs others wont do, but it is also increasing the net amount of brainpower in this society, increasing our rate of progress.
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You are right, of course. But will an uneducated not knowing any language but his own person find job so easily? And will He really be willing to do ANY job?
It is probable that He'll try to earn money in some other way...
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If you really believe that the bible, the torah etc is the true word of god, and not a human interpretation, then you will also believe that women are not deserving of equal rights
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Not quite, if I go back to the New Testament only.
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and various other illogical nonsense.
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Nothing that God says is illogical.
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A text writtenf for a desert culture thousands of years ago has little relevance in society today.
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That's the problem. And that's one of the main differences between Christianity and Islam. While CHristianity believes that words of the Bible were inspired by God, and learnt to interpretate it in relevance to the time it was said; when it comes to Islam, it is believed by its followers that Qur'an is the exact word of the God, to the extent it can not be translated or "modernised" linguistically. Therefore, the interpretation of it will always be much stricter. And in fact I believe that fundamentalists are somewhat right.
If You believe that what it says is right, You can't interpretate it otherwise than the strict meaning.
quote:
With regards to the law, all semetic religions that I know of permit a breaking of the law in its current format. The question is whether that is active. One should not persecute an entire religion, an entire community, simply because a defining feature of that community is used to justify acts against the law. Its a slipperly slope of different interpretations of the law. The danger is the people can get the same attitudes towards ethnic minorities as the Germans did in the 30's towards the Jews. |
You're wrong with what You've said, as a Jew could not stop being Jew, and You can (well....) convert.
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30-05-2003 03:22
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