29-05-2003 02:15									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Usually you borrow it or you inherit it. Haven't you heard that the savings rate has been down for about 30 years

Yeah, because all the yuppies are into the "spend spend spend" consumerist mode.

quote: still lucky

Well, you could stretch the argument to say you're lucky because you didn't get hit by a meteorite on the way to work this morning.

	29-05-2003 02:16									#92
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Luck is random. Most risk is not.

Random has nothing to do with it. It's all about market forces and changes in the economy. And of course if you're smarter than the other fellas then you have an advantage, but that's not to say that the smarter guy is always more successfull, because luck is a more significant factor.

	29-05-2003 02:26									#93
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The DNA you are born with is based on pure luck: you could do nothing to change it.

Your succes in the business world is heavily influenced by your DNA, good DNA can make you more intelligent, more persistant, more patient, stronger, allow you to work hard and long with no bad concequences.

So being rich has a lot to do with luck: the luck of getting the right DNA. Isn't it unfair that people get a better live just because they got a better DNA? A thing they couldn't influence? a thing that is out of there hands?

So what at first might appear the result of hard work is actually the result of pure luck: the luck of getting a DNA that allows and encourages the things that make you succesfyll in the business world.

	29-05-2003 02:33									#94
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Almost all risks can be insured, mitigated, or hedged against. Understanding market forces, economic trends, etc. isn't about luck, it's about careful and critical analysis. You can guarantee results, but you'll get mediocre results due to all the offsetting hedging and risk management costs, or due so saying "**** it, I'll just buy T-bills."

I like the "law of the seven P's" - a little saying by Master Chief Quartermaster Ev Barrett, one of the Seal Team 2 plankowners. "Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance"

If you do good research and proper analysis of the relevant factors to you investment decisions, identify the risks, assess their probability and magnitude, and develop an appropriate risk-management strategy to balance the types and degrees of risk you're willing to accept, you have a much harder time losing than you do winning. Presuming you're not stupid enough to tie up every asset you have in one transaction or one sector of the economy, in the aggregate, people who do good investment work will not lose.

People who've lost money in the investment business, do so overwhelmingly because of inappropriate strategies or inappropriate level of attention to what they're doing.

	29-05-2003 02:35									#95
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kolpo,

That's very social darwinist. Don't you think there are plenty of smart people who choose not to take risks or who take them and lose? And on the other hand, don't you think there are people like Forest Gump who are just plain lucky?

	29-05-2003 02:36									#96
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Most rich people are either lucky or inherit the money. The American dream is a bunch of capitalist propaganda, if it was true my parents would be millionares, we make $25,000 per year. it's all luck, Bush Jr. wouldn't of went to Yale if his daddy wasn't rich, he wasn't good enough in school to normally go to Yale. If an idiot like him gets to go to yale I should too!




anyway, here is what I would do to cut spending:


Raise the dividend tax back up.

Cut millitary spending by $200 billion.

End corporate welfare.

Raise taxes on people who make more than 100,000 per year (to 42%).

Stop ALL subsidies, including farmers.

	29-05-2003 02:37									#97
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo The DNA you are born with is based on pure luck: you could do nothing to change it. Your succes in the business world is heavily influenced by your DNA, good DNA can make you more intelligent, more persistant, more patient, stronger, allow you to work hard and long with no bad concequences.

There's absolutely no evidence that DNA is responsible in general for personality traits, and it's clear that it's not responsible for learned behavior.

The guy that founded MCI made billions, but croaked at his desk of a heart attack, so so much for no bad consequences. Larry Ellison is a deranged *****, with all the charm of a rabid wolverine, but he's also filthy rich.

quote: So being rich has a lot to do with luck: the luck of getting the right DNA. Isn't it unfair that people get a better live just because they got a better DNA? A thing they couldn't influence? a thing that is out of there hands? So what at first might appear the result of hard work is actually the result of pure luck: the luck of getting a DNA that allows and encourages the things that make you succesfyll in the business world.

Well, DNA is responsible to the extent that if the suppliers of your DNA come from say, Burkina Faso, you're probably **** out of luck unless you can get somewhere else, or else successfully launch a coup and plunder the country.

	29-05-2003 02:39									#98
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Almost all risks can be insured, mitigated, or hedged against. Understanding market forces, economic trends, etc. isn't about luck, it's about careful and critical analysis. You can guarantee results, but you'll get mediocre results due to all the offsetting hedging and risk management costs, or due so saying "**** it, I'll just buy T-bills." I like the "law of the seven P's" - a little saying by Master Chief Quartermaster Ev Barrett, one of the Seal Team 2 plankowners. "Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance" If you do good research and proper analysis of the relevant factors to you investment decisions, identify the risks, assess their probability and magnitude, and develop an appropriate risk-management strategy to balance the types and degrees of risk you're willing to accept, you have a much harder time losing than you do winning. Presuming you're not stupid enough to tie up every asset you have in one transaction or one sector of the economy, in the aggregate, people who do good investment work will not lose. People who've lost money in the investment business, do so overwhelmingly because of inappropriate strategies or inappropriate level of attention to what they're doing.

You're talking about people who have plenty of money already. They have the luxury of diversifying. If I get a loan from the bank to start up a business I have to pour everything I have into it. I can't afford to diversify.

	29-05-2003 02:44									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Most rich people are either lucky or inherit the money. The American dream is a bunch of capitalist propaganda, if it was true my parents would be millionares, we make $25,000 per year.

No offense, but they should have done something else, if making more money was the criteria. I know quite a few people who don't make much money, but they enjoy life, and that's fine.

Nothing in the American dream ever said if you work hard at doing something with little market value, you'll get handed a ton of dough. If you want to make money, you have to do what's in demand, or create new demand in the marketplace.

quote: it's all luck, Bush Jr. wouldn't of went to Yale if his daddy wasn't rich, he wasn't good enough in school to normally go to Yale. If an idiot like him gets to go to yale I should too!

I never bothered to finish high school, and just dicked around with college starting when I was 15, but I never bothered graduating from that either. It hasn't slowed me down. Most likely, it's done the opposite.

	29-05-2003 02:48									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You're talking about people who have plenty of money already. They have the luxury of diversifying. If I get a loan from the bank to start up a business I have to pour everything I have into it. I can't afford to diversify.

Sure you can. It's just a matter of how.

If you start up a business on a debt basis, without backing from other sources of income, and without adequate preparation, then yeah, you're lucky if you succeed. Same as you're lucky if you decide to walk across the nearest interstate freeway with a blindfold.

That's not the way to do it.

	29-05-2003 02:51									#101
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quote: The American dream is a bunch of capitalist propaganda

BULL! If you can use a personal story to try to say it's wrong, I'll use one to say why it is right . My dad was an immigrant to this country. He had an engineering degree from Pakistan. He couldn't get into any American University for his masters except the University of Wyoming (not exactly sought after). After he got his masters he worked hard. When my brother was born (2 years after me), our family still lived in a 2 room apartment, with no dinner table and not too much furnature.

20 years later, my dad makes around $100,000 a year and we live in a nice big house and living pretty comfortably.

I've seen the American dream come true, and I'm sure it'll work for me too (once I've paid back all my law school loans ).

	29-05-2003 02:52									#102
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Tell ya what.

I'm going to head south across the border in a few, after running some errands, so I can check my anti-air defenses and the fields of fire for my heavy weapons, in case you commies try anything.

Come up with a scenario - age, income, background, education, current job, type of business someone wants to start, and I'll illustrate what I mean in terms of a concrete scenario.

	29-05-2003 02:56									#103
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Sure you can. It's just a matter of how. If you start up a business on a debt basis, without backing from other sources of income, and without adequate preparation, then yeah, you're lucky if you succeed. Same as you're lucky if you decide to walk across the nearest interstate freeway with a blindfold. That's not the way to do it.

I'm not sure how you started up your business, but starting up a business that could possibly make you a millionaire takes a lot of resources. If you can pour those resources into your business and still hedge against your business failing you are already rich.

	29-05-2003 03:02									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The American dream is a bunch of capitalist propaganda BULL! If you can use a personal story to try to say it's wrong, I'll use one to say why it is right . My dad was an immigrant to this country. He had an engineering degree from Pakistan. He couldn't get into any American University for his masters except the University of Wyoming (not exactly sought after). After he got his masters he worked hard. When my brother was born (2 years after me), our family still lived in a 2 room apartment, with no dinner table and not too much furnature. 20 years later, my dad makes around $100,000 a year and we live in a nice big house and living pretty comfortably. I've seen the American dream come true, and I'm sure it'll work for me too (once I've paid back all my law school loans ).

Thanks for sharing

Don't you think it would be fair for your dad to pay a little more tax than the other folks who are trying to achieve what he has achieved?

	29-05-2003 03:12									#105
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara 90% of the rich were born that way.

Cite?

	29-05-2003 03:14									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin http://www.teleclassinternational.c...tevemattos.html http://www.profitadvisors.com/millionaire.shtml

Never mind that cite, Che. I now know what I merely suspected before... that the "90%" figure was pulled out of your arse.

	29-05-2003 03:21									#107
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quote: Don't you think it would be fair for your dad to pay a little more tax than the other folks who are trying to achieve what he has achieved?

He should be able to keep a good part of the money he earns. The government confiscating about 40-50% of it (federal, state, and municipal) is too much!

And he already is paying more than those poorer than him. He shouldn't have to pay any more than he does now.

	29-05-2003 03:27									#108
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Besides... if he had to pay lower taxes, I may not have to take $130,000 in loans to pay for law school .

	29-05-2003 03:30									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Ok, I'll believe it. So why not privitize it then?

Because to privatize it (The USPS) would literally require a Constitutional amendment and most don't think it is worth the effort.

	29-05-2003 03:30									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui $130,000 in loans

It's tax money that subsidizes those loans though

	29-05-2003 03:31									#111
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 If we're talking about the wealthiest 5% in the US we're not talking about millionaires and I think its quite clear that most of them are born wealthy.

Again, cite?

	29-05-2003 03:31									#112
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quote: Because to privatize it (The USPS) would literally require a Constitutional amendment and most don't think it is worth the effort.

Yep... ole' Article 1, Section 8, Clause 6 . Though, thinking about it... it doesn't say Congress MUST do those things, but only has the power to do so.

	29-05-2003 03:32									#113
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Taxes suk no matter what you pay. Most ppl get mad at rich ppl because they make more money, period. It has nothing to do with taxes at all. In some aspects those who complain that the rich don't pay enough taxes are just as greedy, if not more so, than those rich bastards themselves.

	29-05-2003 03:33									#114
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quote: It's tax money that subsidizes those loans though

Only for about half (the rest is private), but so? Higher taxes wouldn't help subsidize them much more (if at all).

	29-05-2003 03:33									#115
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Its not a trend Oerdin. Your book talks about people with reasonably high salaries and savvy investment practices coupled with frugality. This is not a trend for the top 5% of the US. It is a completely different scale and if your starting from scratch it would probably involve killing a few people or a few thousand to amass that much.

Actually, if you truly understood how wealth is created and looked at the back stories of those 5% you would realize that the way to create a billion is to start your own corporation or real estate empire.

You people who use your ideology to create facts just kill me.

	29-05-2003 03:37									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Also what do you folks think of Warren Buffet? He went on the record as saying a cut in Dividends probably won't cause companies to invest in greater output nor will most consumers get a meaningful amount of money out of it so they aren't going to spend more thus the single largest part of Bush's tax plan won't do anything meaningful to the national economy. It will give a slush fund to the super rich who traditionally stuff their extra money into the stock market so stocks might go up a bit.

Warren Buffet has a serious vested interest in keeping dividends low... being the owner/controller of a number of companies, any dividends paid will essentially come out of his pockets. Right now, Buffet is able to keep his empire because he is a very effective business manager (i.e., he's not just a passive investor looking for a passive gain, he's an active official in all the companies he owns). A dividend cut would cut into his efficacy by emphasizing and increasing stockholder demands for cash that he wants to use for his purposes.

	29-05-2003 03:38									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It's tax money that subsidizes those loans though Only for about half (the rest is private), but so? Higher taxes wouldn't help subsidize them much more (if at all).

But higher taxes stop the deficits

	29-05-2003 03:38									#118
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Who ever said deficits are always a bad thing?

	29-05-2003 03:41									#119
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Warren Buffet has a serious vested interest in keeping dividends low... being the owner/controller of a number of companies, any dividends paid will essentially come out of his pockets. Right now, Buffet is able to keep his empire because he is a very effective business manager (i.e., he's not just a passive investor looking for a passive gain, he's an active official in all the companies he owns). A dividend cut would cut into his efficacy by emphasizing and increasing stockholder demands for cash that he wants to use for his purposes.

Ok, he's biased just like the rest of us. What does that have to do with the points he brought up?

	29-05-2003 03:42									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Who ever said deficits are always a bad thing?

No me. Just when they don't stimulate the economy