04-06-2003 18:33									#151
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "should be completely overhauled in order for us to build something great, in a democratic fashion." How exactly?

Like having Europe-wide elections for the MP (unlike the several-nation wide system we have now) which will push for more party and political coordination.
Like having this parliament having the law initiative, and having the final say in every EU directive.
Like having an executive (i.e the commission) elected by the population, either through the parliament, or directly (I prefer the second oprion, but I can live with the first) and accountable in front of its voters.
Like getting rid of the inter-governmental haggling, which is currently the most obscure AND the most powerful force behind EU decisions.

Like giving enough monbey to the commission so that there is enough staff to actually write good reglementations, rather than copy/pasting what the lobbyists write.

Like giving extended powers to Europe, esp. in regard of Foreign policy, provided the voters have a real say in how Europe is led.


Yes, I would think it's better.

	04-06-2003 18:43									#152
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler The "trolling in the 21st century" conference?

Euo Solid State Ionics. Run by a German. They were required by EU requirements to do it in an impoverished area of Europe. Like a Greek Island or Spanish beach...

	04-06-2003 18:46									#153
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And I'm not trolling, I'm just reporting back. It was a little silly in its EUness. The science part was cool and the location was great. But the EU parts were kinda rinky dink. And even the Euians said so.

There were two lesbian EU administrators who knew no science but came along to check on the conference. They just enjoyed the location...

	04-06-2003 19:02									#154
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It's just good contingency planning.

For what? It just seems disruptive to me.

Suffering from more lack of editing...

	04-06-2003 19:07									#155
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's just good contingency planning. For what? It just seems disruptive to me.

In case one of the parliaments gets blown up of course.

	04-06-2003 19:41									#156
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should I buy dollars now or wait even longer?

	04-06-2003 20:14									#157
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quote: Originally posted by GP There were two lesbian EU administrators who knew no science but came along to check on the conference. They just enjoyed the location...

What did they do? Administrate?

	04-06-2003 20:27									#158
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Spiffor:

I disagree on several points, mostly from a federalist rather than a centralist pov:

1. having Europe-wide elections for the MP

Depends. A single election law is overdue. But I'm strictly against EU-wide lists which would mean up to 300 MEPs elected by list. This has to be done on a regional basis (like eg in Germany), otherwise the MEPs have no connection to a constituency.

2. having this parliament having the law initiative

I'm a bit torn on this. I fear it will result in a flood of crappy initiatives. The EP can demand a Commission initiative; it can censor or dismiss the Commission if it seems that worth it. IMO it can also sue the Commission and force it via the ECJ to start an initiative, but I haven't follwowed doctribne on this point.

3. having the final say in every EU directive

I'm not sure what you mean there. the EP as single legislator? No. The Council of Ministers is the necessary federal component in a federal two-chamber system.

4. having an executive (i.e the commission) elected by the population, either through the parliament, or directly

I'd say through parliament. This is currently not a legal, but a political problem.

5. Like getting rid of the inter-governmental haggling, which is currently the most obscure AND the most powerful force behind EU decisions.

As I said, I'm against abolishing the Council of Ministers.

6. Like giving enough monbey to the commission so that there is enough staff to actually write good reglementations

EU law isn't that bad, compared to national law. Most of it is administrative law, and that is simply a pain to write. I don't think this is a staff-related problem.

7. Like giving extended powers to Europe, esp. in regard of Foreign policy

Yes.

	04-06-2003 20:29									#159
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what about buying dollars?

	04-06-2003 20:31									#160
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Don't.

	04-06-2003 21:13									#161
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The EP has two bases because of old decisions that are holding. But every MEP wants to get out of Strasbourg (beautiful building, but far from Brussels the real capital of Europe, and not enough room).

It is mostly France's insistance to keep some things in its own "City of Europe" that makes the EP still holding plenum in Strasbourg. Besides, we have no idea of what to do of this gorgeous building once th EP gets out...

Maybe we should create some other institution to fill it ?

	04-06-2003 21:26									#162
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler What did they do? Administrate?

I guess they are along in some funding/grant-approval capacity. And checking to make sure that the science gets done (while they enjoyed the location). In the US, somebody like that at NSF or NATO or the like would be have a Ph.D. science background and would have a little more understanding of the match from science to the objectives of the funding aganecy. These chicks did not have that. Nor did they administer in terms of the logistics, etc. That was all handled by the conference organizer and his secretary (German professor). They did give a rather insipid speech about EUness and the importance of developing young researchers and the like...

	04-06-2003 21:28									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Maybe we should create some other institution to fill it ?

I'm sure the UN could move there once the US decides to kick it out.

	04-06-2003 21:42									#164
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quote: Originally posted by GP I guess they are along in some funding/grant-approval capacity. And checking to make sure that the science gets done

Ad 1., no.

Ad 2., an observer role? Maybe.

	04-06-2003 23:27									#165
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Ad 1., no. Ad 2., an observer role? Maybe.

I don't understand your clipped comments.

WRT 1, I'm pretty sure they funded the conference. That is what I meant. Not in the sense of funding general research and attending for that reason (I've seen that in US at ACS and MRS conferences by NSF guy for example.)

It was more than a passive observer. The conference had Euro in the title, had specifications on where it could be, had subsidies for attendance, etc.

Let me look for a website.

I'm not making a big argument of it. It is what it is. Pretty decent and fun conference. But the rah, rah EU stuff was a little hokey. So said my young German science colleagues. Guy who I ran with and hung out with...

	04-06-2003 23:32									#166
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"WRT 1, I'm pretty sure they funded the conference."

The lesbian admins? They don't decide research grants etc. They may have been there for a report, or whatever. Not particularly useful either.

	04-06-2003 23:45									#167
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "WRT 1, I'm pretty sure they funded the conference." The lesbian admins? They don't decide research grants etc. They may have been there for a report, or whatever. Not particularly useful either.

I guess we are at a language impasse again. I think they funded the conference. (Not that they fund research itself...like I said before.) Hence the requriement for doing it in an impoverished part of Europe.

	04-06-2003 23:46									#168
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Oh and they weren't admins in the sense of secretaries. They were just some sort of middle manager apparatchiks. Without much science background. In the US, at a sponsored conference, at least such people would have some science background.

	04-06-2003 23:47									#169
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Whom are you talking about:

"I think they funded the conference. (Not that they fund research itself...like I said before.)"

The EU? Of course it funds research.

The lesbian admins? They funded neither.

	04-06-2003 23:47									#170
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I couldn't find anything on the continued conferences. Maybe the gravy train ended. HEre is the guy who ran it:

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/ionik/

	04-06-2003 23:48									#171
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Whom are you talking about : "I think they funded the conference. (Not that they fund research itself...like I said before.)" The EU? Of course it funds research. The lesbian admins? They funded neither.

Well, no ****. No program officer funds stuff himself out of personal funds.

	04-06-2003 23:49									#172
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Whom are you talking about : "I think they funded the conference. (Not that they fund research itself...like I said before.)" The EU? Of course it funds research. The lesbian admins? They funded neither.

Yes, I mean the EU. And the two lesbians were the representatives of the funding agency. Perhaps even the program officers or such.

	04-06-2003 23:52									#173
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George, why is it that you know they were lesbians, but not what exactly their position was?

	04-06-2003 23:52									#174
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The EU funds conferences and research.

"Admins" or whatever with no respective background or whatever they may have been don't decide on those funds.

So I can't see how your "I guess they are along in some funding/grant-approval capacity" is supposed to make any sense.

	05-06-2003 00:05									#175
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler The EU funds conferences and research. "Admins" or whatever with no respective background or whatever they may have been don't decide on those funds. So I can't see how your "I guess they are along in some funding/grant-approval capacity" is supposed to make any sense.

Given that I don't make sense...and you weren't along for the conference, I have a hard time seeing how you can say what these ladies did or didn't do.

	05-06-2003 00:05									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Colon George, why is it that you know they were lesbians, but not what exactly their position was?

My German friend explained it to me...

	05-06-2003 00:07									#177
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I'm not sure exactly what the hell these ladies were there for. They weren't secretaries. They gave some EU speech and they enjoyed the travel. There was no EU representative in terms of a program officer or such WITH a scientific background. These two ladies were the official EU people at the EU-sponsored conference. Make of it what you will...

	05-06-2003 00:09									#178
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quote: Originally posted by GP My German friend explained it to me...

And how come he explained their sexuality instead of something less trivial?

	05-06-2003 00:12									#179
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quote: Originally posted by GP Given that I don't make sense...and you weren't along for the conference, I have a hard time seeing how you can say what these ladies did or didn't do.

I can only say what they didn't do. Those conferences and projects are funded within the 5th or now 6th FP, and there's a slightly more sophisticated procedure for that.

As to what they did do, I have no clue, and obviously you haven't either.

	05-06-2003 00:24									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Colon And how come he explained their sexuality instead of something less trivial?

GP was thinking of hitting on one?

jon Miller