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HershOstropoler
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I think yankeetwats just like to shout "Jawohl, mein Führer".
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HershOstropoler
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And just because the EU's political system does not match some utopian dreamworld is not a reason not to further integrate.
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HershOstropoler
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quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney
blair is very often economical with the truth, but we can vote him out if we so chose, whereas the only european body we have a vote for is the parliament, which has very little actual power. we can't (directly at least) hold any other body in the EU to account, how is that even comparable with ANY national government?
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Yeah, arsetalker. The only UK body you have a vote for is the House of Commons. When was the last time you did vote for PM, the House of Lords or the Queen? Also, the myth that the EP is powerless, you can really scrap that now. It's getting boring.
You can't hold the Council of Ministers accountable as a whole - but that's part of its raole as a federal organ. You can hold the UK minister in it accountable, just as every national parliament can hold its minsters accountable. You could formalise that into a specific control as Denmark and Austria have.
As for the Commission, the EP can oust it. The reason we don't have an indirect vote on the Commission President via EP elections is political, not institutional. Also I'm not sure it would be a good idea, as it would weaken the EP politically.
On what is your knowledge of the EU institutional ond political system based? On the Torygraph?
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:28
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we last voted for PM in 2001, the prime minister is the leader of the party with the largest number of seats in the commons.
it's true we only vote for the commons (nationally at any rate), but that is the body with the most power, and the one which gets things done (i could go on about why it's better to have an unelected second chamber, but that's another thread).
in the EU the two most powerful bodies are not accountable to the people. the council of ministers takes decisions as a group, how can the british public hold french, german or greek ministers to account, 'direct control' or not, we can't. the commission may be supervised by the parliament (which may not be entirely powerless, but is still a lot less powerful than the commission or the CoM), but again we can't hold it directly to account. the whole system is undemocratic.
why would anyone in their right mind want to surrender power to such a wasteful and undemocratic body?
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HershOstropoler
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"Why do you assume anyone critical of europe reads the Sun or Telegraph."
I only assume that for people in whose criticism it is evident that they don't have a clue.
"As for the EP, it is powerless in theory it might have powers but it won't use them."
Laughable. The EP is very active on the legislative side. And if it's so clear that it won't use its controlling powers, why did the Santer Commission resign?
And about which accounting problem exactly are you talking?
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HershOstropoler
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C0ckney:
"it's true we only vote for the commons (nationally at any rate), but that is the body with the most power, and the one which gets things done"
The most power legally. Politically, the intertwining of the Commons majority and the government means that its powers are quote limited.
"how can the british public hold french, german or greek ministers to account"
How can the devonshire public hold the sussex MPs to account? How can the Bavarian public hold the Bundesrat delegation from Saxony to account? Totally pointless.
"but again we can't hold it directly to account"
And you can't hold your government directly to account.
And that crap about the powerless EP - just ask the lobbyists.
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HershOstropoler
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quote:
Originally posted by TheStinger
Oh yeah they resigned and all got their jobs back.
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Oh yeah that's why Cresson & co is still in the Commission.
"The accounting problems where by the auditors keep saying the accounts are flawed and money just dissapears and then get suspended."
Who was suspended beyond Andraesen, if that's the thing you're talking about? How are the accounts "flawed"?
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HershOstropoler
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quote:
Originally posted by TheStinger
HershOstropoler
You make some very good points about the problems with UK democracy and then seem to suggest that those problems are ok in a european context |
I don't say they are ok. What I say is that some of them are inevitable.
But you are using those problems to say let's get rid of the EU, while you aren't saying let's get rid of the UK. I wonder why.
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02-06-2003 13:15
) so we can reject both. 
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