29-05-2003 20:04									#61
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Art I-2 of the draft: "The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, liberty, democracy, the rule of law and respect for human rights. These values are common to the member states in a society of pluralism, tolerance, justice, equality, solidarity and non-discrimination."

I wonder why Stinger and Brits like him have a problem with this?

I see Turkey will never make it BTW.

	29-05-2003 20:26									#62
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Arrian: Good point.

Big ****ing deal. Just why "My point in this thread is that these core values seem dumb." - Do you think they are dumb? Or do you have no idea what you are you talking about?

The core values should be embodied in the actual provisions of the constitution, so that the following things are promoted... respect for human dignity, democracy, rule of law, etc. When you look at the provisions of the US constitution that you quoted, you can tell clearly what the framers' core values were (some of which, obviously, are not the same as we have now).

The EU text would not be harmed at all if you had just taken that red marker and deleted that whole article.

But hey, I don't wanna piss you off, if you contributed that language.

	29-05-2003 20:31									#63
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Here's the whole preamble...

quote: CONV 722/03 nat/MS/ms 2 EN Conscious that Europe is a continent that has brought forth civilisation; that its inhabitants, arriving in successive waves since the first ages of mankind, have gradually developed the values underlying humanism: equality of persons, freedom, respect for reason, Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, which, nourished first by the civilisations of Greece and Rome, characterised by spiritual impulse always present in its heritage and later by the philosophical currents of the Enlightenment, has embedded within the life of society its perception of the central role of the human person and his inviolable and inalienable rights, and of respect for law, Believing that reunited Europe intends to continue along this path of civilisation, progress and prosperity, for the good of all its inhabitants, including the weakest and most deprived; that it wishes to remain a continent open to culture, learning, and social progress; and that it wishes to deepen the democratic nature of its public life, and to strive for peace, justice and solidarity throughout the world, Convinced that, while remaining proud of their own national identities and history, the peoples of Europe are determined to transcend their ancient divisions, and, united in an ever closer fashion, to forge a common destiny, Convinced that, thus "united in its diversity", Europe offers them the best chance of pursuing, with due regard for the rights of each individual and for their responsibilities towards future generations and the Earth, the great venture which makes of it a special area of human hope, Grateful to the members of the European Convention for having prepared this Constitution on behalf of the citizens and States of Europe.

	29-05-2003 20:32									#64
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I wonder why Stinger and Brits like him have a problem with this?

Please, enlighten us as only you know how.

	29-05-2003 20:37									#65
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"The core values should be embodied in the actual provisions of the constitution, so that the following things are promoted..."

They are. But Art I-2 (now Art 6 EUT) has more than a symbolic purpose. It is also the basis for Art I-58 (now 7 EUT).

"When you look at the provisions of the US constitution that you quoted, you can tell clearly what the framers' core values were"

Slavery was a core value?

	29-05-2003 20:46									#66
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The only part of the whole preamble that is worth a damn is the following paragraph, edited by yours truly.

quote: In order to deepen the common civilisation, progress, prosperity, culture, and learning of our people; and In order to strive for peace and justice throughout the world, These united European states declare:

	29-05-2003 20:47									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Here's the whole preamble...

Horrible!

Anyway, IMO it can be left out. Along with Art I-3. Of course, having such a preamble means the EU is doomed. Sure...

	29-05-2003 20:47									#68
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Slavery was a core value?

Yes, unfortunately.

	29-05-2003 20:48									#69
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"Slavery was a core value?"

Yup. Came from our European heritage.

	29-05-2003 20:50									#70
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"In order to deepen the common civilisation, progress, prosperity, culture, and learning of our people"

It's our peoples, damnit.

	29-05-2003 20:51									#71
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Slavery was a core interest, but hardly a core value.

	29-05-2003 20:51									#72
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having such a preamble means the EU is doomed

No, having such a preamble does not doom the EU. Arguing about it does.

	29-05-2003 20:54									#73
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Actually arguing about it seems to doom DanS.

	29-05-2003 20:55									#74
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Slavery was a core interest, but hardly a core value.

Not so, Hershell. We were willing to compromise on another core value (one man, one vote) for it.

	29-05-2003 21:00									#75
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Slavery was a core interest, but hardly a core value. Not so, Hershell. We were willing to compromise on another core value (one man, one vote) for it.

I think he was responding to me, Dan.

	29-05-2003 21:00									#76
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"one man, one vote" was hardly a core value at the time, in the absence of universal suffrage even just for males. And you can compromise between a value and an interest.

	29-05-2003 21:01									#77
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I think he was responding to me, Dan.

No, he wasn't.

	29-05-2003 21:03									#78
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"one man, one vote" was hardly a core value at the time, in the absence of universal suffrage even just for males.

OK, then government by proportional representation was the core value.

And you can compromise between a value and an interest.

Between a core value and an interest? Bite your tongue!

	29-05-2003 21:17									#79
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"OK, then government by proportional representation was the core value."

Well somewhat, but I'd say it was mostly about balancing the states' voting powers. The composition of the senate is completely unreconcilable with that value.

"Between a core value and an interest? Bite your tongue!"

You think it's impossible? Why?

	29-05-2003 21:23									#80
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Well somewhat

You see! If we had to come up with some wording about the core value itself, we would be arguing all day!

	29-05-2003 21:26									#81
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Even though the preamble is boring, I fail to see what is so horrible with it. They have managed to write one without including God in. Good. Now let's go do something interesting.

	29-05-2003 21:43									#82
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well somewhat You see! If we had to come up with some wording about the core value itself, we would be arguing all day!

The core values are in Art I-2. Little to no dispute about it.

As for the preamble, let them haggle about the fluffy bits. The project won't fail over a dispute over the preamble...

	30-05-2003 17:10									#83
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IMO, the preambule summarize quite correctly the reasons we had and still have the built the EU. The body of the constitution has only to develop how they are translated in the practical life.

I am sure that our grand-sons will read it with interest.

	30-05-2003 17:27									#84
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if you want something to laugh at, try looking at a constitutional charter of serbia & montenegro (known also as a S&M state). it was adopted despite the need to break up the union, because of intense eu pressure and is a complete chaos.
god have mercy on our civil servants....

	31-05-2003 03:56									#85
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He is alive!

	31-05-2003 04:06									#86
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quote: Originally posted by LaRusso if you want something to laugh at, try looking at a constitutional charter of serbia & montenegro (known also as a S&M state). it was adopted despite the need to break up the union, because of intense eu pressure and is a complete chaos. god have mercy on our civil servants....

Welcome to the club of crazy euro constitutions. The former members are Austria and the UK.

	31-05-2003 04:07									#87
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quote: known also as a S&M state

I have heard one on that subject

Where are you going?
I'm going to a football game.
Who is playing?
Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia and Montenegro.

That not a game, it's a tournament!

	31-05-2003 04:09									#88
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The reverse version of Austria vs Hungary.

	02-06-2003 13:04									#89
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I wonder why Stinger and Brits like him have a problem with this? I see Turkey will never make it BTW.

Because the words aren't backed by actions, the EU is I agree not about to turn into a Stalinist horror, however the basis behind it is that the government and especialy unelected officials know better than the average man on the street. The level of democracy and accountability is shocking.Liberty and freedom is "granted" by the state, that is the wrong way round. Free people should create the state.

	02-06-2003 13:12									#90
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"The level of democracy and accountability is shocking."

Yeah, like most national situations are better. We'll see with how much lying and abuse of office Blair gets away soon, will be interesting.

As for the EU, it doesn't follow the classic parliamentary system. That has advantages and disadvantages. Here's a good article about the system:

http://www.jeanmonnetprogram.org/papers/02/020501.pdf

But you are more interested in stereotype than fact, so I doubt it's useful to you.