02-06-2003 03:51									#31
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The hardliners would have probably killed Trotsky.

	02-06-2003 04:08									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Mao I still contend that the basic truths of communism have worked well in BioDome projects and within a small family unit. Of course, it could then be contended that because the scale is so small, it is not communism. *shrug*

thats debatable, i suppose, but thats how it works.

families have a major common intrest, yes? they're all essentially working for one goal.

society, as a whole, may be striving for one goal, but the individuals become more diverse with the larger population.

the way i see it, communism/socialism will not evolve successfully from the current system.

what you need to do, is teach children from an early age, the ways and values of communism. i'm not talking brainwashing, i'm just talking about teaching them and instilling values.

for example, we teach young children that killing / hurting another is wrong. we attempt to write over actions that are deep rooted within our evolutionary mind.

same with monogomy. overwiting what nature has installed in us.

another thing right there is greed. back long ago, greed aided survival. the more food the had, the better chances you had to live / carry on your traits.

but, for some reason, society embraced greed rather than trying to deter it. and thats why capitialism thrives and communism ultimately "fails", the people were raised in a way that supported greediness, and just changing into communism is hard.

i firmly believe, if you took a population, of say, 5,000 young children, and raised them in isolation with adults that firmly believed in Communism, a communism society would thrive. And I think the next generations would maintain their values, and the society would continue to thrive.

i've often pondered the utility of religion in the formation of such a society.

how that society would react to other (greedy capitialistic) societies is unknown.

worth a shot. gimmie some fertile land, some money, and 5000 babies.

	02-06-2003 04:11									#33
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I agree with you Uber.... for Communism (as Marx described it, NOT what has existed) to succeed, people need to instill the values of equality and hard-work in raising their children, while maintaining the value that greed is bad.

IMO, the best humans can do, at this point, is a Social Democracy. Capitalism has it's faults, and a truly good system would encorporate the advantages of capitalism while compensating for its weaknesses.

	02-06-2003 04:19									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I agree with you Uber.... for Communism (as Marx described it, NOT what has existed) to succeed, people need to instill the values of equality and hard-work in raising their children, while maintaining the value that greed is bad.

This what the parents are suppose to do, with the addition of a good load of critical spirit for self protection.

	02-06-2003 04:25									#35
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quote: for some reason, society embraced greed rather than trying to deter it.

It is hard to deter something which is basically innate in humanity. You said it yourself... it was needed because it aided survival. Trying to get rid of greed would be futile in the end.

	02-06-2003 04:25									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT This what the parents are suppose to do,

I agree

quote: with the addition of a good load of critical spirit for self protection.

Humanity's biggest problem is poor parenting. I don't care what anyone else says, IMO every single problem in the world can be linked to poor parenting...

	02-06-2003 04:26									#37
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quote: Trying to get rid of greed would be futile in the end.

I disagree. I just think it would be really, really hard.

	02-06-2003 04:30									#38
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Uber: The Kibbutzim are failing. After 3 generations, the children are moving to the city, the economies of the kibbutzim are a disaster and all in all that experiment is nearing its end.
On the other hand, you could argue that with the incredible push for nationalism that wasn't true communism either and that is the reason it died. Or the media. Who knows. Fact is, they didn't survive contact with the capitalist society around them, even though the living conditions in the kibbutzim (I believe even the worst-off of those) is better than much of the surrounding society. And yet the children leave. Why?

	02-06-2003 04:30									#39
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I think it wouldn't work. It's like those parents that try to raise their boys to be, well... less male, and more sensitive. Then they take their dolls and cut of their heads or use them as guns. Conditioning isn't going to train something hardwired in us.

	02-06-2003 04:35									#40
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I don't believe greed is hard-wired. Survival is... They are different.

	02-06-2003 04:40									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Conditioning isn't going to train something hardwired in us.

Education incorporating critical spirit is the opposite of conditioning. Fortunately it works.

	02-06-2003 04:53									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: for some reason, society embraced greed rather than trying to deter it. It is hard to deter something which is basically innate in humanity. You said it yourself... it was needed because it aided survival. Trying to get rid of greed would be futile in the end.

trying to get rid of murding people who thretan you seems to have worked over time, overall.

	02-06-2003 04:55									#43
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the 30,000 some Americans who get murdered each year would disagree with you

	02-06-2003 04:58									#44
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quote: I don't believe greed is hard-wired. Survival is... They are different.

Greed has been necessary to survival. After all isn't self-interest that which has allowed us to live in the past? I don't think they are that different at all.

And as Gordon Gecko in the movie Wall Street said: Greed is good!

	02-06-2003 05:01									#45
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"Communism is a failure every single place it has been tried "

Numerous small examples, look at some examples from ancient India, the Buddhist derivatives, also more modern examples like communist philosophies creating stuff, like the FOSS communities and also lets not forget communes that exist and have been existing for years, most noteabily Kibbutzes in Israel.

Communism, Lenin/Stalin style sucks, I'll agree with that. But that was just one interpretation of heaven knows how many wildly different varients. Stalinism failed. It failed for a reason.

That reason was nothing to do with Marx, the link between communism and the failure of that society has not really been successfully shown and proven.

I await the rectifying of that situation, though I doubt it'll come.

	02-06-2003 05:02									#46
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This thread title asked for it:

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	02-06-2003 05:03									#47
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"Greed has been necessary to survival"

To a greater, more fundamental extent, so has altruism. That is part of the reason that mammals have been so successful. Nonetheless, greed seems to have a place in the human psyche, but then, like rape, murder, etc, these parts of human nature can be tempered by nurture. I dont think that some aspects of society and humanity were ready for communism in the purest sense (not stalinism).

	02-06-2003 05:05									#48
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Genius!!!! And so close to reality that its almost scary.

	02-06-2003 05:05									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I don't believe greed is hard-wired. Survival is... They are different. Greed has been necessary to survival. After all isn't self-interest that which has allowed us to live in the past? I don't think they are that different at all.

But your argument has a very important flaw. For you to be correct, would mean that everyone would be succuming to their greedy desires. Society exists to provide a sort of social control over instincts and raw human emotions that are damaging. The basic existence of society proves you wrong.

	02-06-2003 05:06									#50
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quote: but then, like rape, murder, etc, these parts of human nature can be tempered by nurture.

Perhaps, but you'll see, even though we say how bad it is and wrong it is and how horrible it is and tell our kids not to do this, it still happens on a large scale level.

All it takes is a couple greedy bastards in a 'true' communist society to **** things up.

	02-06-2003 05:06									#51
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Im just threadjacking. I admit it. I couldnt help the urge to post the pic. The title was soooo appropriate.

	02-06-2003 05:16									#52
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quote: Who knows, but the Communists didn't overthrow the Tsars anyway. A better question is whould a Provisional Government led Russia been able to defeat Germany, and yes, I think they would have. Especially with the economic reforms they were pushing.

quote: That would make an interesting fiction story. Does anyone know of any books that cover this kind of subject? Alternate history, etc.

If you are looking for alternate history online resources, soc.history.what-if newsgroup has an abundance of good threads, but also, overwhelming traffic.

	02-06-2003 05:17									#53
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"it still happens on a large scale level"

Not really, in terms of rapists and rape victims in the general population, I'd suggest that it is vastly less than what it was 25'000 years ago.

"All it takes is a couple greedy bastards in a 'true' communist society to **** things up"

True, but then, I think that the society is able to cope with that, just as our society is able to cope with rapists. Nonetheless, I like the Shangri-la based idea of small little communes, comprising humans living together in small groups, but then interacting. More environmentally sound that cities nonetheless, and is more likely to work. However, I am not a communist by most interpretations, I prefer the idea of the Mill Limit (see link in sig).

	02-06-2003 05:20									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Perhaps, but you'll see, even though we say how bad it is and wrong it is and how horrible it is and tell our kids not to do this, it still happens on a large scale level.

It depends on your definition of large scale. Less than 1% of people in America will commit murder or rape.

quote: All it takes is a couple greedy bastards in a 'true' communist society to **** things up.

This statement is baseless because a true communist society has never existed in the first place. Judging from the current economic policies in America, I could just as easily assert that a couple of greedy bast4rds are ****ing things up in this society.

	02-06-2003 05:20									#55
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And on topic: the reason communism didn't work is because Stalin was a smoker. Cigarettes kill, kids, and that includes communism

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	02-06-2003 05:21									#56
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quote: Not really, in terms of rapists and rape victims in the general population, I'd suggest that it is vastly less than what it was 25'000 years ago.

I don't know how much I'd agree with that statement. There are plenty of rapes out there that simply don't get reported. I remember a study done where teenage females said they expected force.

quote: I like the Shangri-la based idea of small little communes, comprising humans living together in small groups, but then interacting. More environmentally sound that cities nonetheless, and is more likely to work.

The sound you hear is technological progress screaching to a halt .

	02-06-2003 05:25									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I don't know how much I'd agree with that statement. There are plenty of rapes out there that simply don't get reported. I remember a study done where teenage females said they expected force.

this can be a misleading statistic like the "most marriages fail" statistic... perhaps the rapist in question is a multiple offender... I doubt most rapes are isolated incidents. As with the marriage thing, the stats don't take into accound "repeat offenders"... i.e. people who commit multiple rapes and people who have multiple divorces

	02-06-2003 05:28									#58
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion And on topic: the reason communism didn't work is because Stalin was a smoker. Cigarettes kill, kids, and that includes communism

not to mention the soviet union didnt even know how to even use the friggin alphabets..... and hired bunch of mongolians for government positions.

	02-06-2003 05:40									#59
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quote: perhaps the rapist in question is a multiple offender

Well obviously the prision system did not deter him. It did not make him see what was right and wrong.

It's not a misleading stat that most rapes go unreported Sava. I think you'll find just about everyone that works on rape cases will echo that statement. Most women just think nothing will be done, or think that it won't matter. The number of women, who later in life, look back and say, yeah, I was raped back then but didn't think I was is staggering!

And most 'date rapes' (or more accurately acquaintance rapes) aren't done by repeat offenders, but by all manner of individuals.

	02-06-2003 05:44									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well obviously the prision system did not deter him. It did not make him see what was right and wrong.

You're assuming he was caught in the first place.

quote: It's not a misleading stat that most rapes go unreported Sava.

That's not what I said. I believe the number of rapes can be misleading in determining the number of seperate rapists.

quote: And most 'date rapes' (or more accurately acquaintance rapes) aren't done by repeat offenders, but by all manner of individuals.

proof? perhaps you should ask a criminal psychologist about whether or not rapes are isolated incidents