 |
|
Lincoln
|
|
Communism would be a geat idea if it were not for human nature. Even in places like Thailand where everyone loves the king and Buddah and people call each other "sister" and "brother" communism will not work. The real world is not one big happy family. Like Imran said, it only takes a few people to screw things up. When they do you need laws and enforcement and protection and authority. The power corrupts and it goes down hill from there.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
chegitz guevara
|
 |
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
I wonder why such a poorly written thing full of contradictions could be become so influential that it was still seem as basic theory in the former Soviet Union and the other Eastern block countries. |
What don't you understand. It's actually pretty straightforward.
First you have to understand about capitalism is that it necessarily leads to the accumulation of masses of capital in a few hands (there are mitigating factors and countervailing tendencies, however). Each crisis (depression, recession, etc) causes firms to fail. At other times, the logic of the market leads to mergers and take overs. Furthermore, simple success leads to the growth of capital in a single firm.
Over time, this leads to monopoly capitalism, a handful of firms dominating most industries, either by being a monopoly (MS, Standard Oil, etc), a trust, or a cartel. By controling their segment of the market, they can command supply, and they can take extra profit.
This creates a contradiction. Now, as any simple econ class can tell you, an excess of capital in a market causes problems. These companies can't leave all this money just sitting around. They need to invest it, to make it "work" for them. Because of the monopolized situation in their market, investing it there will bring no additional profit, and will even lower the profitablity of their currently productive capital.
So, mr moneybags is left with a problem, where to put his money to use? The third world! There, they capital can produce great quantities of profit, as costs are so low. Of course, you want your capital defended, so the British Navy followed the pound around the world. The French Foreign Legion defend the Franc, and so on.
There is, however, adds to the contradiction. Now they have even more profits they need to invest, and quickly the world is carved up. Then they begin eyeing the other empires, to take their colonies, their resources, their labor markets. The next thing you know, world war.
What's so hard to understand?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Lincoln
|
|
What exactly does date rape have to do with the cost of Vodka in Russia?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sava
|
 |
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:28
|
|
While I don't dispute that study, I fail to see how you can effectively stretch the results to encompass all of America.
I do appreciate the gravity of the situation. I have friends that have been the victim of date rape.
Rape is commited by criminals. Well, okay that sounds stupid because rape is a crime and commiting a crime makes you a criminal. Let me rephrase. Rape is commited by a certain type of person. Certainly not restricted to psychopaths, but certainly commited by men who are garbage and should be castrated.
There is a difference between a brutal attack and a some kinds of date rape... especially if alcohol is involved. Rape is rape... don't get me wrong. Each kind and circumstance is terrible and should be met with the most severe of punishments. But there is a difference between a brutal, predatory, psychopath that commits a violent rape; and the "normal" acquaintances who take advantage of a friend.
We're kind of getting off-track here. But overall, my point is this. AFAIK, the amount of men, as a whole of the population, that commit rape are small in proportion. Certainly, there are enough moral men who are proof that social conditioning can curtail primitive behavior.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Imran Siddiqui
|
 |
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:28
|
|
quote:
Rape is commited by a certain type of person. Certainly not restricted to psychopaths, but certainly commited by men who are garbage and should be castrated. |
See, I'm not entirely sure that it is committed by a 'certain type of person'. Because MOST men, IMO, don't know what date rape is. You know, 'convincing' the woman to have sex is considered ok by most men, but when you continue to kiss her even after she has whispered 'no', you are right there at sexual assault (that wouldn't put you in jail or anything, but you get it).
I USED to think that your view was more correct. But I remember a thread HERE, where posters were emphatically saying that "no doesn't always mean no". Then I realized all men have the capability.
quote:
We're kind of getting off-track here. |
Ok, fine  . I'll shut up.
Just be glad this hard drive was wiped clean, or I'd post my undergrad seminar paper on acquantance rape .
|
|
| |
|
|
|
monkspider
|
 |
banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:28
|
|
Interesting thread, Che summed up Comrade Vladimir's thoughts on imperialist capitalism nicely.
Anyway, in regards to the question of communism's future success, inevitably, it is the only thing that can work. Capitalism has never really worked, and can never work. It has merely survived, and the state of the world that it has wrought can hardly be called a success. The problem with capitalism is that it is ultimately based on philosophies that are totally upside down from the real world.
If you break things down, there are really only two schools of thought in the world. Those that are all-oriented, and those that are self-oriented. Naturally, commnunism falls into the former, and capitalism into the latter. Now, communism and other similar philosophies are the only ones that represent our true nature, a nature that has been obsecured by centuries of warfare, genocide, greed and so on, true, but the one that represents us as we truly are nonetheless. We will see communism when we evolve to a state spiritually and socially where we are able to once again awaken to that true nature. Some of us, already have, others are well on their way, most are not far.
But if you remember anything that I have ever said here at Apolyton, merely remember this promise. I promise all my friends and comrades here at Apolyton that we will have achieved global communism within no more than twenty years.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
BeBro
|
 |
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What don't you understand. It's actually pretty straightforward. |
I think some of Lenin´s conclusions aren´t correct. I don´t consider me an economy expert, but some things he mentions don´t seem convincing to me.
quote:
First you have to understand about capitalism is that it necessarily leads to the accumulation of masses of capital in a few hands (there are mitigating factors and countervailing tendencies, however). Each crisis (depression, recession, etc) causes firms to fail. At other times, the logic of the market leads to mergers and take overs. Furthermore, simple success leads to the growth of capital in a single firm. |
Yes, he argues that imperialism is monopolistic capitalism without competition. A monopoly is the death of competition. End of competition would lead to slowdown (or worse) in scientific/technical progress, which is one sign for a dying capitalism. However, some pages later he says monopolies don´t end competition, but they exist above or besides competition. But when there is still competition why shouldn´t the companies be driven by competition? Except in the rare case that for one industry only one monopoly exists, competition still takes place, today globally.
Also, while a crisis indeed causes firms to fail, and there is indeed a tendency to larger companies, one cannot ignore that there is always a "reinforcement" of new, small companies, which can fail or merge together too - and so on, and so on.
And Lenin says the capitalism is dying, but agrees basically that at his time, capitalism is growing faster than ever. Since this is the case at his time, when there is already imperialism (highest form af capitalism), why assume it is dying?
quote:
Over time, this leads to monopoly capitalism, a handful of firms dominating most industries, either by being a monopoly (MS, Standard Oil, etc), a trust, or a cartel. By controling their segment of the market, they can command supply, and they can take extra profit. |
That I don´t find convincing, because what is a strict monopoly? Maybe MS comes close (but not to 100%) but in most other fields we still don´t have monopolies. We have a number of big car builders only in Germany, and more worldwide. We have a number of competitors in military technology, in biotech or chemistry, we have Boeing and Airbus in a fierce competition, we have several big oil companies etc. etc. And once a monopoly isn´t always a monopoly.
quote:
So, mr moneybags is left with a problem, where to put his money to use? The third world! There, they capital can produce great quantities of profit, as costs are so low. Of course, you want your capital defended, so the British Navy followed the pound around the world. The French Foreign Legion defend the Franc, and so on.
There is, however, adds to the contradiction. Now they have even more profits they need to invest, and quickly the world is carved up. Then they begin eyeing the other empires, to take their colonies, their resources, their labor markets. The next thing you know, world war.
|
Yes, that would mean a problem if there is nothing left to colonize. Lenin argued therefore that WWI was the consequence of imperialism, because the big powers tried to re-divide the world. I would agree here. But the big colonial empires broke down some decades after the end of WWII while capitalism in the "big players" of colonialism like France and Britain is still alive and well. Germany or Japan after WWII were quickly successful again without colonies. How can they do it, without having colonies (anymore), which were defined by Lenin as essential for more profit, therefore for the survival of capitalism?
According to Lenin the year 1917 marks the beginning of the global proletarian revolution (he writes that 1920 in the introduction of the French and German editions for his theory). That was quite a big prophecy.....
|
|
| |
|
|
|
monkspider
|
|
banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'll bet you 1 million dollars, or how much gold that is worth that this prediction will NOT come true  . |
Well, I don't have a million dollars, and it is unlikely that either gold or "dollars" will have any real value in twenty years. But that said, I would happily wager anything or everything on such a bet. But don't worry, I will never call you on it. Let us merely share a drink some day to celebrate our victory.
quote:
It seems to be working where I sit. I'm typing at a personal computer created by capitalist companies, on a website dedicated to a game made by and distributed by commerical capitalism. I definetly think capitalism has been an overwhelming success and boon to the world. This world would be far, far worse without it. |
As I said my friend, it has survived, obviously we need look no further than Apolyton as proof of that. Has it been a success? Any system that has brought so much suffering could never be called a success by any stretch of the imagination. It has brought some progress though, and it is quite a step from feudalism, after all, it was not long ago that a feudal lord made this quote:
"What? You mean commoners should be permitted to acquire wealth and land? Perish the thought! God clearly intended some to rule and others to be ruled. If this liberal economics idea takes hold then anyone will be able to own land and achieve wealth putting them at the level of the nobility. Horrors!"
While capitalism is conservative in our time, and make no mistakes, it was once a very liberal ideal. But, humanity has evolved a great deal since that time, and it is nearly ready to make the final step.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sava
|
|
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:28
|
|
quote:
Then I realized all men have the capability |
I agree... but I would argue that for some, environment and social conditioning would dictate whether or not they go through with it the psychos are mostly hard-wired for it
quote:
capitalism will win over the entire world |
Believe it or not Fez, but I agree. That's why I wish you wouldn't throw around stereotypes. I'm partly a capitalist in the truest sense. I'll even paraphrase Ronald Reagan, who said something like this...
"While flying in Air Force One, I see the swimming pools, the cars, the houses, the consumers shopping. That's what people want, and we should bring that to the rest of the world." --paraphrased Ronald Reagan
I agree with this 100%. I just disagreed with his methods and thought that some of his actions were contrary to his goals. I also believe that every human being has inherent civil rights that a Democracy should provide. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And somehow, health care has a lot to do with protecting life.
Most of my anti-Republican rants are motivated by the corruption and abuse that I see going on. I agree with most of what Bush says. I want to see job creation and prosperity for ALL in economic policy. I want to see better education in America. I want to see freedom, Democracy, and consumer capitalism spread across the globe. I want my future children to live in a peaceful world. And as much as this rhetoric is spoken, the actions of Bush and the Republican party comes in contrast with these ideals. Their economic policy doesn't create jobs... and only rich corporations prosper... and at the expense of the poor and middle classes. Education isn't even close. Bush has left every child behind. Everything he's done for education hasn't worked. And in fact, he's cut many educational programs. But the media conglomerates don't report that. You don't see it on mainstream websites or the nightly news. The hypocrisy is evident in their foreign policy as well. How am I supposed to believe in Bush's rhetoric when so many close to the administration are profiting because of the war. Or when the foreign policy is only consistent towards countries that are oil/economically rich?
Fez, and others: I certainly don't agree with Communist ideals. And monkspider, with all due respect, I don't agree with you or your vision of the future. I just wish you guys would stop thinking that everyone is part of a political party, listen to what I say, try to understand my point of view, and perhaps share yours so I can better understand you.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
monkspider
|
|
banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:28
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
agree that such a world would be desirable |
I ain't Fez... but I tell you that a world in where everyone works in their self-interest, and in the end that results in the betterment of all as infinetly preferable... if simply because of all the advances in technology we get by self-interested invididuals wanting to make new things that people will buy. |
Ah, self-interest, the magical words that make capitalism tick. Consider this old friend, what if I told you there was far more to this reality than what we own, more than making fancy things for people to buy. What if this our purpose in this world is not owning the most possessions, but living in cooperation with all others? Certainly you would agree that capitalism is quite impractical for these ideals? You can say that capitalism has created new technologies and so on, it's irrelevent. Under a true society in communist vein, we will become the new technology. I am not sure what your religious beliefs are, christian, muslim, etc, they're irrelevent. All I ask of you is this, is fundamentalism the best government in our world because one would consider it the best government in Civ 2? If you don't think it is, then you will find that you and I are ultimately in agreement.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:28.
Apolyton Time is 00:28. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
02-06-2003 05:56
|