10-06-2003 19:36									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GePap under what insane notion do you think Pal's are denied that same "right"?

No, No. I agree that it is a cycle that must be stopped. Hamas had a chance to honor a cease-fire and rejected it. One side cannot stop the cycle. It must be both. I will say again...the Palestinians must police themselves for there to be peace. If Hamas states that they will not stop the violence and the Palestinians won't stop them, then is your solution for Israel to just sit there and get blown to bits while doing nothing but ask for peace? That's the real bullsh1t!

	10-06-2003 19:40									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This is relevent to my comment how?

Duh? I'm not taking the bait.

	10-06-2003 19:41									#33
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PLATO: not "you" you but "you" Israeli's. Damn it, they need ot fix the English language and get more second person pronouns!

As for the Pals: they have very little political impetus for self-policing. Most of their police was bombed as is, and even then, what reciprical measures will they see? And every time Israel "does its own policing", they don't just arrest people, but kill them, then bulldoze the families house. That means even less political will to do anything nice towards Israelis.

	10-06-2003 19:48									#34
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GePap, I can't help but agree. Conversly, every suicide bombing makes the Israeli's less likely to change their policy. There must be an end to it all. The Israelis can't stop the Pals and the Pals can't stop the Israelis. They must each stop themselves. A cease-fire honored by all elements of both sides is the only beginning point to real peace. Hamas must recognize this if they want peace. Sadly, I am of the opinion that they want a continuation of the violence. Why else would they have rejected a cease fire and a chance to negotiate under the "road map"? Surely not a perfect plan, but probably the best opportunity yet.

	10-06-2003 19:48									#35
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Every innocent bystander is a future militant Israeli settler.

Nah.. most Israelis will become well-educated, well-dressed, well-behaving, egoistical gentlemen (/ ladies), too busy with their carreers for burning olive trees for sports.

	10-06-2003 19:56									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Al'Kimiya Nah.. most Israelis will become well-educated, well-dressed, well-behaving, egoistical gentlemen (/ ladies), too busy with their carreers for burning olive trees for sports.

Al'Kimiya, you have hit on the second root problem. The economic disparity between the average Israeli and the average Palestinian must be addressed. Millions in aid have been sent to the Palestinians over the years but sadly, little has found its way to the people.

	10-06-2003 19:58									#37
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Al'Kimiya, you have hit on the second root problem. The economic disparity between the average Israeli and the average Palestinian must be addressed. Millions in aid have been sent to the Palestinians over the years but sadly, little has found its way to the people.

Any true peace proposal should adress this point, and direct funds to prevent overbreeding.

	10-06-2003 20:14									#38
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Sometimes this hwole issue just astounds me to no end. How many Israelis have died from palestinian Terrorism? You can go to Israeli foreign Ministry site and they give you comprehensive lists: in the past 50 years, under 2000 Israelis. And up until 2002, Pal orgs were not even tops in suicide attacks, the Tamil Tigers (not muslim anyway) were the number one carriers out of suicide attacks. And yet we are aways told peace is impossible!

More Isarelis died fighting the Egyptians than have died against the Pals, yet Israel and Egypt made a peace deal 20 year ago and it has held.. (so much for enever ending Aarb dreams of conquest).

The reason neither side does much to move towards peace has little to do with the number of people killed (which, in world terms, is actually rather LOW), but becuase neither sides wnats to eventually confront the basic political questions that come up, questions that they (both sides) believe invalidate their most basic and cheerished assumtpions about who they are, and who the other side is.

	10-06-2003 20:26									#39
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I am very glad to see some colonies demolished. I wholeheartedly agree with DD on this issue : if the settlers build them again, let the Palestinians dismantle the colonies

	10-06-2003 20:33									#40
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yip, great way to encourage Hamas to a cease-fire, try to kill their spokesman.....very smart....yup, brilliant...obviosuly both sides want peace....

Hamas has already publicly stated that they will never enter a cease fire. And if Israel doesn't attack Hamas despite attacks to it, what would be the motivation to enter a ceasefire in which Israel doesn't attack Hamas, but Hamas must not attack either? Seems like Hamas would have no gain by entering such a cease fire.

	10-06-2003 20:37									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Hamas has already publicly stated that they will never enter a cease fire. And if Israel doesn't attack Hamas despite attacks to it, what would be the motivation to enter a ceasefire in which Israel doesn't attack Hamas, but Hamas must not attack either? Seems like Hamas would have no gain by entering such a cease fire.

Hamas has eneterd cease-fires in the past. So much for never.

As for Israel attacking Hamas: shooting missiles into cars on the street in one of the most densely populated spots on earth is not the only way to combat Hamas.

	10-06-2003 20:37									#42
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	10-06-2003 20:39									#43
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hamas has eneterd cease-fires in the past. So much for never.

No, they haven't. The only cease fire they've talked about is stopping to kill civilians in Israel proper (but not civilins outside Israel proper, or military inside or outside Israel proper) if Israel stops any attacks against any Palestinians - civilian or terrorist in or out of the territories. That is not a cease fire and it never even happened, so the point is mute, anyway.

quote: As for Israel attacking Hamas: shooting missiles into cars on the street in one of the most densely populated spots on earth is not the only way to combat Hamas.

Have a better method for killing the #2 man of Hamas?

	10-06-2003 20:44									#44
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Is it possible to hit ALL of Hamas?

Get all their names. Don't make any hits for a while so they get lazy and think the heat is off. Track 'em. Satellities, those little spy robots, all that ****.

Then have a real purge, hit them all on one night, all of 'em.

No more Hamas, no more problem.

	10-06-2003 20:45									#45
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Edan:

1. Hamas has agreed to times of no attacks on Israeli in the past, so, whatever.

2. Don't kill him. Arrest him, or deal with him.

	10-06-2003 20:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker Is it possible to hit ALL of Hamas? Get all their names. Don't make any hits for a while so they get lazy and think the heat is off. Track 'em. Satellities, those little spy robots, all that ****. Then have a real purge, hit them all on one night, all of 'em. No more Hamas, no more problem.

So you kill the teahcres and soup kitchens they run too? How about thier families as well? all the kiddies too?
And how unfair of you, to ignore Islamic Jihad like that, not even giving them the time of day!...

(there re not enough I can give this statement)

	10-06-2003 20:48									#47
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Edan: 1. Hamas has agreed to times of no attacks on Israeli in the past, so, whatever.

No they haven't.

quote: 2. Don't kill him. Arrest him, or deal with him.

Bwahaha. How exactly are you going to arrest him without getting a whole lot of "by standards" killed in the process? Serve him a warrant and hope he goes quietly?

Deal with him?

	10-06-2003 20:52									#48
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Nice pof of "bystander"..I hope you are not one of those that feels Pals are never bystanders.

Second, if other state conduct raids for wanted me, so can Israel. Want to be treated like all toher states? Act like one.

And as for the second part: I am a strict NON-believer in the idiocy of "never deal with terrorist".

	10-06-2003 20:57									#49
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Nice pof of "bystander"..I hope you are not one of those that feels Pals are never bystanders.

I'm not saying they're not innocent civilians (although one of the bystandards was a Hamas bodyguard...), I'm stating that they're being used as human sheilds by the terrorists. The Geneva convention does not give immunity to terrorists simply because they're hiding behind someone - the death of that person is the responsibility of the terrorist.

quote: Second, if other state conduct raids for wanted me, so can Israel.

Like Somalia?

	10-06-2003 20:59									#50
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Hamas is the most active and visible.

Getting rid of them would send a message that a minority of wackos don't represent the palestianian people.

It depends on what you mean by 'membership' in Hamas.

The criminal aspect of Hamas is the indoctrination, organizing, and carrying out of murder. That's what needs to be cut out. If a soup kitchen type guy is indoctrinating people (do an op, be a martyr, your family will be secure and you'll be a hero), then yeah of course he should go he's a terrorist.

If he isn't indoctrinating he is has nothing to worry about.

Families: a toughy. The long-term destructiveness of Hamas makes me think any sacrifice is acceptable. Young kids should, of course, try to be protected and made wards of the state or adopted. Same with other non-terrorist family members if any. But anyone who gets in the way of the buttonmen is a combattant, same as on the battlefield. After all, if a Hitler Youth is about to kill you, who cares how old he is?

These terrorist groups have always hid behind the innocent. Isn't it time to give up the conciliatory, deal-making approach that has worked so well with them in the past?

Note that 'them' refers to the militant push the jews into the sea groups not the palestinian people who've been crushed and buggered by both Israel and their 'Liberation' groups.

	10-06-2003 21:02									#51
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quote: And Cuba doesn't murder anyone

yeah, okay Chegitz...

	10-06-2003 21:04									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Edan I'm not saying they're not innocent civilians, I'm stating that they're being used as human sheilds by the terrorists. The Geneva convention does not give immunity to terrorists simply because they're hiding behind someone - the death of that person is the responsibility of the terrorist.

Its hard not be be next to civiians, when you live in one of the most densely populated spots on earth. Let a few hundread thousand Pals. back in Israel and thin it out then.

quote: Like Somalia?

Yes, exactly like Somalia, and if it had not been screwed up, no one would have died. And even if people do die, too bad, they were doing the right thing.

	10-06-2003 21:07									#53
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Its hard not be be next to civiians, when you live in one of the most densely populated spots on earth.

Well, if it's so densly populated that you're always going to be next to civilians, any firefight that happens (and if you go in to arrest a top leader, there undoubtably will be a firefight), there will be many killed.

quote: Yes, exactly like Somalia, and if it had not been screwed up, no one would have died. And even if people do die, too bad, they were doing the right thing.

So it's better to kill more than a thousand bystandards than to kill 2?

Want to explain that to me?

	10-06-2003 21:08									#54
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quote: Originally posted by GePap More Isarelis died fighting the Egyptians than have died against the Pals, yet Israel and Egypt made a peace deal 20 year ago and it has held.. (so much for enever ending Aarb dreams of conquest).

Thus the birth of Islamic Jihad and the eventual elevation of its leader into the #2 Al-Qeada spot.

quote: The reason neither side does much to move towards peace has little to do with the number of people killed (which, in world terms, is actually rather LOW), but becuase neither sides wnats to eventually confront the basic political questions that come up, questions that they (both sides) believe invalidate their most basic and cheerished assumtpions about who they are, and who the other side is.

Bingo!

	10-06-2003 21:24									#55
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5 rockets were fired on the town of Sderot, 4 Israelis were lightly wounded, Israeli helicopters supposedly located the car which the shooters used to escape and bombed it. 4 dead Pals.

	10-06-2003 21:34									#56
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Eli, does anyone in your region give a damn about peace anyway? I´m just watching the news, and it all looks as hopeless as usual.

	10-06-2003 22:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Well, if it's so densly populated that you're always going to be next to civilians, any firefight that happens (and if you go in to arrest a top leader, there undoubtably will be a firefight), there will be many killed. So it's better to kill more than a thousand bystandards than to kill 2? Want to explain that to me?

The only reason that many people died is becuase the US screwed up. If Israel screws up, then they screw up. The possibility of danger does not mean that they should shrink form their duty. Oh, and the IDF could not care much if many Pals died (as their operations show), they just don;t want to risk personel, which is the wrong attitude. You do what is right, period.

And if you think it is too dangerous to attack, then you hold off. I guess things like a fair trial and such don;t matter for Pals, right?

	10-06-2003 23:05									#58
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The only reason that many people died is becuase the US screwed up. If Israel screws up, then they screw up. The possibility of danger does not mean that they should shrink form their duty. Oh, and the IDF could not care much if many Pals died (as their operations show), they just don;t want to risk personel, which is the wrong attitude. You do what is right, period. [/qb]

If Israel didn't care how many Palestinians die, they could wipe the lot in a month if they wanted to. They certainly have the capability.

Instead, they do everything they can that is practical to minimize civilian casualties. That is why the number of civilian casualties are so low - and they are low, just compare it with the death tolls in Iraq in one month of warfare - despite the use of civilians as shields by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, etc.

Taking your chosen action - going in to arrest the leader - even though you know it will inevitably cause more civilian deaths is irresponsible because it is easily predictable that it wil cause far far[i] more deaths.

quote: And if you think it is too dangerous to attack, then you hold off.

Sometimes it's too dangerous [i]not to act. And if Israel were to wait until arresting/killing the terrorist would have no chance of harming civilians, they would end up never doing so because those terrorists intentionally hide amoung the civilians [i]in order[i] to make sure that any attack on them will risk civilians. As

quote: I guess things like a fair trial and such don;t matter for Pals, right?

Oh please Perhaps we shouldn't have sent in the military into Iraq and Afghanistan, but policemen with warrants?

There is a time and place for trials. And there is a time and place for killing because you know that the individual wont go quietly - and will cause firefights and death - and will do as much as he can to cause more civilian deaths unless he is stopped.

	10-06-2003 23:26									#59
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I was agains the war in Iraq, so that hardly works with me, and as for Afghanistan, you expect more deaths, given the far greater level of violence being used.

Israel fails in this attack, but Hamas will react. if Israel had succeeded, Hamas would react. So how does this help anything? It satisfies the urge for vengence of a large number of people, but beyond that, nothing, and it is hardly the type of justice that a state that consides itself democratic.

To make it short and sweet: Israel assasination policy runs counter to democratic values, HR's, and is in the end counterproductive to boot. There is nothing calling for it, except eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth; an outmoded principle that should be gotten rid of as soon as possible.

Today all israel achieved was keeping things bad, and if it had worked, making them worse. Wow, what a wonderfull job!

	10-06-2003 23:30									#60
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Let me add:

Morality is not measure by body bags. That works both ways. The right things may kill far more than the "wrong thing", and still remain the correct act.

In general, don;t try to appeal to me with notions of more or less deaths. People die, period. 90 million are born each year, and not a single one of them is more valuable than the others. Doing what should be done is more important. The less people you can hurt doing it, the better, but if it must be done, it must be done.