10-06-2003 23:32									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Sava yeah, okay Chegitz...

Whom have they murdered? Accepting, for the moment, that the DP is not considered murder, legally.

	10-06-2003 23:36									#62
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quote: [Israel fails in this attack, but Hamas will react. if Israel had succeeded, Hamas would react.

Guess what. If Israel didn't do anything, Hamas would react. At least by attacking Hamas's assets - like it's leadership, Hamas can be made weaker and less capable of carrying out those attacks.

quote: So how does this help anything?

Sigh - it sends a message to the leadership of those organizations that so long as they keep on attacking Israel, Israel will continue to respond - just like any other war. Compare that with not doing anything - which is the same thing as a one sided ceasefire, in which Israel does not do anything while the terror groups get free reign to launch terror acts. I think I know what I would prefer my government do if terror groups attacked me.

quote: It satisfies the urge for vengence of a large number of people, but beyond that, nothing, and it is hardly the type of justice that a state that consides itself democratic.

This isn't about justice or revenge. It's about warfare. A ceasefire cannot be one sided.

quote: Today all israel achieved was keeping things bad, and if it had worked, making them worse. Wow, what a wonderfull job!

If the alternatives are killing 1000+ people in a foolish attempt to capture someone alive in order to put him on trial or making concessions to terrorists, then Israel has made the right decision.

	10-06-2003 23:49									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Edan If Israel didn't care how many Palestinians die, they could wipe the lot in a month if they wanted to. They certainly have the capability.

No, they don't. Israel is bound by what the world finds acceptable. Even the US will not support Israel "wiping the lot." Israel (as we know her) cannot survive international sanctions. This is a bogus argument.

quote: Instead, they do everything they can that is practical to minimize civilian casualties.

No. Firing missiles at apartment complexes does not qualify as "doing everything that is practical." Israel leaves piles of collateral damage in its wake. I grant that they face difficulties, but there is no question that Israel could do more, a great deal more, to minimize casualties.

	10-06-2003 23:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Guess what. If Israel didn't do anything, Hamas would react. At least by attacking Hamas's assets - like it's leadership, Hamas can be made weaker and less capable of carrying out those attacks. [/QUOTE} You mean like all the previous assasitnation have? Yeah, very effective....... quote: Sigh - it sends a message to the leadership of those organizations that so long as they keep on attacking Israel, Israel will continue to respond - just like any other war. Compare that with not doing anything - which is the same thing as a one sided ceasefire, in which Israel does not do anything while the terror groups get free reign to launch terror acts. I think I know what I would prefer my government do if terror groups attacked me. This isn't about justice or revenge. It's about warfare. A ceasefire cannot be one sided. Problem, this isn't a war. [QUOTE]If the alternatives are killing 1000+ people in a foolish attempt to capture someone alive in order to put him on trial or making concessions to terrorists, then Israel has made the right decision.

You are as bad as Ran in the Tianemmen thread. Newsflahs: just becuase you have gotten this absurd view in your head that it will be like Mogadishu, well, does not make it true. Israel lanches raids for militants all the time. as of yet, none of those have killed thousands: if I remmebr correctly, not even the raids in Jenin killed thousands.

You (as Ran did) have this simplistic notion that its either a or b, a or b. It isn't. The possibilities are endless yes, for good or bad). And since we lack a crystal ball, I prefer to make arguemns based on principles and ideas, not utterly unsubstantiated and unsubstantiable results.

	11-06-2003 00:00									#65
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I have to agree with Edan. Hamas is the problem here. If they would agree to the cease-fire than today's events never would have happened. They have publicaly stated time and again that they wish to wipe out the Jewish state. Israel is justified in retailiation.

LittleRaven, A missle into an apartment building is preferable to 2000 troops and tank support having to fight their way to the apartment building and then having a pitched battle to try to get who is in there (assuming that they have not moved to another civilian location). I also think that it is a HUGE leap to assume that the Israelis would wipe out the Pals if the world gave a green light.

Hamas must come to realize that the only chance that they have of obtaining the Palistinian state they desire is through multi-lateral negotiation. Military pressure is the only guage that they have to measure their sucess or failure. An Israeli one sided cease-fire would be a Hamas victory and only provoke a more rigid stand and inspire more violence. The Israelis must continue to degrade their ability to wage a terrorist war while continuing to offer a cease-fire.

	11-06-2003 00:07									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You are as bad as Ran in the Tianemmen thread. Newsflahs: just becuase you have gotten this absurd view in your head that it will be like Mogadishu, well, does not make it true. Israel lanches raids for militants all the time. as of yet, none of those have killed thousands: if I remmebr correctly, not even the raids in Jenin killed thousands. [/qb]

No, the Jenin raid didn't. And in that case, I supported moving in ground troops to do a slow, careful weading out.

(And yes, Jenin dind't kill thousands - despite wild accusations by the Palestinians that 5000+ were being mass excecuted - it killed 52 according to the Israelis and 56 according to the Palestinians after the fighting was over. And 23 Israelis)

The difference is that Jenin took place in the West Bank, a place far less populated, was targeted at a large number of low lever terrorists suicide-wannabees trather than a terrorist leader who is surrounded by bodyguards and civilians.

The only alternative I can think of would have been to get the PA to go in and arrest the leader, since their forces in Gaza are largely intact because the IDF try to avoid going into the Gaza strip largely because it would cause huge numbers of casualties. And the PA have stated that they would not do any such thing - and it's likely someone in the PA would simply tip off the person.

quote: The possibilities are endless yes, for good or bad).

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean you can't predict simple things, like Hamas is going to kill again, or going in to arrest a heavily uarded indivudal who surrounds himself with bodyguards and civilian human shields, and who is expecting you coming, in the most populated location in the world is likely to get some bystandards killed.

quote: And since we lack a crystal ball, I prefer to make arguemns based on principles and ideas, not utterly unsubstantiated and unsubstantiable results.

"I don't know the future, therefore I can ignore the very likely and real probability that lots of people will get killed?"

	11-06-2003 00:15									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc And if they rebuild again after that, let the Palestinians be the ones to deliver the eviction notice.

	11-06-2003 00:23									#68
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Whom have they murdered? Accepting, for the moment, that the DP is not considered murder, legally.

Yeah, I was wondering about that. Why do people try to paint Castro as Stalin? The vast majority of the Cuban people genuinely love him, unlike the Russians with Stalin.

I guess if he's a communist he must also be a tyrant and a sadist.

	11-06-2003 00:25									#69
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That's pretty much it (Commie=Stalin).

Though I'm not exactly fond of Castro, he's in a different league than Stalin, or Kim the younger for that matter.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 00:35									#70
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Somehow, I must "agree" with GePaP. This ***-for-tat warfare makes no sense. Israel should go after the terrorists, Hamas, et al., with armor and infrantry. There will, course, be a large number of casualties on both sides. The number of Palestinian casualties will be in the thousands, perhaps in the tens of thousands. But in the end, the Israeli's will get their man, just like we got Saddam and Aidid. GePap truly is wise and prudent.

	11-06-2003 00:38									#71
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Does this mean you now think the war on Iraq was wrong, Ned?

	11-06-2003 00:40									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian That's pretty much it (Commie=Stalin).

Ask a Trotskyite for a second opinion.

quote: Though I'm not exactly fond of Castro, he's in a different league than Stalin, or Kim the younger for that matter.

Different league? It's a different game.

	11-06-2003 00:40									#73
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Whom have they murdered? Accepting, for the moment, that the DP is not considered murder, legally.

How many innocents do you think Castro has executed? Don't give me that DP isn't murder bullsh1t.

	11-06-2003 00:48									#74
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Does this mean you now think the war on Iraq was wrong, Ned?

No, not really.

I think, though, the raid on Aidid was wrong. As we saw from what actually happened, if anything went wrong, there would be a bloodbath. That much was predictable.

I think, though, the way we conducted the Iraqi campaign was remarkable in the way it minimized casualties on both sides. (Mainly in the Iraqi side because they threw down their arms and went home.) Had the war resulted in hundred of thousands of casualities as some predicted, it would have been harder to justify.

	11-06-2003 00:53									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Does this mean you now think the war on Iraq was wrong, Ned?

Che:

You know what my postion on the war was (as does everyone), and this and the other are not the same. Blanket arguements are usually wrong, even if once or twice they hit.

This isn't about Iraq.

Also, please do not generalize about support for or against that war. We were both against it, but for very, very different reasons.

Edan:

Jenin is as dense as any place in Gaza. Gaza is small: the Irsaeli would rive in, hit the camp they were seeking (a camp that would be just as dense and as messy as Jenin), would in theoyr raid one or two houses and then get the hell out of dodge. If anything, such an opeartion would be far less bloody than Jenin because of the far more limited aims.

	11-06-2003 00:59									#76
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Ned, you speak of the war in Iraq as if it's over. American soldiers are still dying each week.

	11-06-2003 01:07									#77
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quote: Jenin is as dense as any place in Gaza.

Hmm? I think you'll find you're wrong about that. The Jenin camp had fewer than 10,000 in it.

quote: Gaza is small: the Irsaeli would rive in, hit the camp they were seeking (a camp that would be just as dense and as messy as Jenin), would in theoyr raid one or two houses and then get the hell out of dodge.

Sure, it would be that easy...

Such an operation would be doomed from the start, given th eclear warning the person would have by the time Israel built up it's forces to go in, and any confrontation between a large force and a large groups of angry individuals would likely lead to deaths. And there would be many such confrontations. (never mind provocateurs shooting at the soldiers, or booby trapped roads or buildings, terrorists using human shields to protect them from retaliation, etc.)

If there were a plan that could truely expect low civilian casualties, I would support it. At this time, I don't see that as being likely.

Tell me, if you think that doing a raid in the Gaza strip would be easier than Jenin, and since Israel clearly had the will to go in on the ground in Jenin, why do you think they aren't willing to do so in this case?

	11-06-2003 01:09									#78
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Edan: Jenin is as dense as any place in Gaza. Gaza is small: the Irsaeli would rive in, hit the camp they were seeking (a camp that would be just as dense and as messy as Jenin), would in theoyr raid one or two houses and then get the hell out of dodge. If anything, such an opeartion would be far less bloody than Jenin because of the far more limited aims.

I think, GePap, that Jenin was a lot different that Mogadishu or the assault you are asking for. The Israeli task force in Gaza will be as deep in hostile territory as were our troops in Mogadishu. A armed resistence by the Palestinians could lead to a bloobath.

BTW, speaking of Mogadishu, it appears from your posts that you were in favor of the raid because of your statements that the large number of casualties were caused by a "screwup." What was the screwup?

	11-06-2003 01:24									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Ned, you speak of the war in Iraq as if it's over. American soldiers are still dying each week.

True. The Baath party continues to fight on because we do not have Saddam. I'm afraid that even if we come up with evidence that we killed Saddam, that his legend will continue to live and inspire resistance.

Hopefully, we can get a new government in place soon. That will help since the war will be between the Baathists and the new government, and we can bug out.

	11-06-2003 01:32									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If Israel really wanted peace, they'd stop murdering bystanders.

Hmm, if we could knock off Saddam or OBL wouldn't it be worth a few dead bystanders? Hamas is an organization dedicated to destroying Israel and driving the Jews into the sea so I could understand why they'd feel killing this bastard was important enough to risk just about anything.

	11-06-2003 01:39									#81
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that logic doesn't work with the "war on drugs", Oerdin... Why would it work with "terror"? Whenever you chop off a head, a new one grows and takes it's place.

	11-06-2003 01:40									#82
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But doing 'what one feels like" is very different from worhthilwe policy. At least this admin. recognizes that as far as this conflict oges. Good thing the admin. renounced this act by the Isarelis, and they should continue to do so every time Israel assasinates someone.

quote: Such an operation would be doomed from the start, given th eclear warning the person would have by the time Israel built up it's forces to go in, and any confrontation between a large force and a large groups of angry individuals would likely lead to deaths. And there would be many such confrontations. (never mind provocateurs shooting at the soldiers, or booby trapped roads or buildings, terrorists using human shields to protect them from retaliation, etc.)

And what if any is the difference between all this and what predated the March and April 2002 crackdowns? Just by the more limited nature of the objectives less forces would be needed.

quote: Tell me, if you think that doing a raid in the Gaza strip would be easier than Jenin, and since Israel clearly had the will to go in on the ground in Jenin, why do you think they aren't willing to do so in this case?

A raid and an invasion are two different hings. frst of all, israel routinely carries out raids in Gaza for militants and worshops. And Gaza is not the only place were Israel carries out assasinations. If the Irsaeli meant to take Gaza as they did the West Bank, yes, that would be horribly bloody, far worse than anything in the west bank. Bu they would not be doing so, they would be going in to secure one or two individuals and then move out. Yes, still risky, specially in the middle of Gaza City, but far morwe within the norms of society than assasinations (does anyone remember the origin of the word? It isn't particularly a well intentioned term, now is it?)

	11-06-2003 01:57									#83
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GePap, I just can't see where an armed raid would be safer for anyone than a helicopter gunship attack. (except, of course the intended target).
Assasination is not a "pretty" or "honorable" thing. It is sometimes the best way to deal with a particular problem. In the case of Hamas leaders, I have to agree with the Israeli method of handling them. Once Hamas makes peaceful co-existance their goal (if they ever do), then the issue needs to be revisited. For now, Israel does have the right to self defense and assasination is a legitimate tool.

	11-06-2003 02:01									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Sava that logic doesn't work with the "war on drugs", Oerdin... Why would it work with "terror"? Whenever you chop off a head, a new one grows and takes it's place.

I remember reading an article in the economist about three years ago where they showed a big drop in terrorism after the Israelis kiled off half of Hamas's leadership. It took several years the ramaining heads of Hamas to train new people and during that time terror attacks dropped by 2/3s or something along those lines.

Still, you are missing the basic reality. Hamas says they're going to keep up terrorism until all the Jews leave. The choice for the Israelis is allowing there country to be destroyed, attempting to ignore the constent terror attacks in hopes they will go away, or militarially responding by killing the fanatics who are planning and directing the terror attacks.

At of those choices only one is doable and the Israelis have choicen it.

	11-06-2003 02:20									#85
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Today I saw a newspaper, with a big caption in red letters saying: "The Evacuation" and a photo of a sad little girl holding a big stone (apparently to be put in an anti=bulldozer barricade). How touching. They've evacuated ten (or something, not checking facts here, but that's the scale methinks) "illegal" (illegal accord. to Israeli law, naturally, as by international law all settlements are illegal, but screw international law...) settlements, four or so of them manned. Wow, the great sacrifice, cutting in the living flesh.
Then they fire a few rockets in Gaza to show 'em who's boss.
Idiots.
Everybody, that is. Hamas, the Israeli government, no bloody difference. Literally..... They all want peace as much as I want to have a broomstick up me bloody arse. You can somewhat plausibly pretend that you want it, but nobody's going to be fooled except for real foolish (or gullible) people.
And you know what? When the Road Map goes the way of Oslo, everybody's gonna be cheering on the streets, as they do each time a bus blows up. "Now we've got a reason to kill a few palestinians yippy yippy yippy" like they did on 9/11. "Yeah, suits them right for not letting us firebomb Gaza. Maybe now they'll let us yippy yippy."

When people are crazed enough to want to swim in blood they're gonna get it no matter what.

Sorry for the rant, I'm really angry at the bastards.

	11-06-2003 02:22									#86
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Just look on the terror levels before and after Defensive Shield. During the operation and in the few months after it Israel killed or captured a whole generation of terror leaders which brought a huge drop in the quality and quantity of terrorist attacks.

	11-06-2003 02:22									#87
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Oerdin, you are making that Iraq war mistake again. There aren't two courses of action (kill people or do nothing). There isn't peace because there aren't people on both sides that want peace. When both sides want war and violence, you get war and violence.

	11-06-2003 02:29									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Sava When both sides want war and violence, you get war and violence.

When only one side wants war and violence, you still get war and violence.

	11-06-2003 02:30									#89
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It takes two to tango, edan

	11-06-2003 02:32									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Oerdin, you are making that Iraq war mistake again. There aren't two courses of action (kill people or do nothing). There isn't peace because there aren't people on both sides that want peace. When both sides want war and violence, you get war and violence.

Sava, I was under the impression that Israel offered a cease-fire and that Hamas rejected it. Seems that while your argument is correct, it doesn't apply. (Of course this would go well with your own statements concerning the relevance of your posts )