11-06-2003 02:33									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It takes two to tango, edan

So if one side wants war and the other side doesn't, there won't be a war?

	11-06-2003 02:35									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Edan When only one side wants war and violence, you still get war and violence.

Yes, but both sides want war. The harldiners in Isrrael need war as an excuse to hold on to the OT. And the idiots in Hamas are only too happy to oblige.

Hamas needs war because help gather people to their cult. When the Israelis overreact, it proves Hamas correct about the nature of the foe. And the idiots in the IDF are only too happy to oblige.

	11-06-2003 02:37									#93
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes, but both sides want war. The harldiners in Isrrael need war as an excuse to hold on to the OT. And the idiots in Hamas are only too happy to oblige. Hamas needs war because help gather people to their cult. When the Israelis overreact, it proves Hamas correct about the nature of the foe. And the idiots in the IDF are only too happy to oblige.

Simplistic and not a reflection of the majority of Israelis. Hamas rejected the cease fire, not Israel.

	11-06-2003 02:40									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Edan So if one side wants war and the other side doesn't, there won't be a war?

Sorry, there are hardliners on both sides that want war. While the Israeli people as a whole might not be as hawkish as the Palestinian people, there are still two sides that want war.

Having said that, I do think the Palestinians are more to blame for the violence in the region. They have legitimate gripes against Israel, but there are more Palestinian people that want Israel smited from the planet than there are Israeli hawks.

And although Israel is justified in much of it's action against the terrorist leadership elements, they are not taking enough care to ensure civilian safety.

	11-06-2003 02:54									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Sava there are more Palestinian people that want Israel smited from the planet than there are Israeli hawks.

I wonder why... For some reason it doesn't surprise me. I'll let y'all guess why. A couple of words that start with O.

	11-06-2003 02:55									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Firelad I wonder why... For some reason it doesn't surprise me. I'll let y'all guess why. A couple of words that start with O.

enlighten me, o' great DL

	11-06-2003 02:57									#97
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Firelad's not a DL.

	11-06-2003 02:57									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Sava enlighten me, o' great DL

And I.

edit: Dance removed ( ) thanks to che

	11-06-2003 02:58									#99
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Simplistic and not a reflection of the majority of Israelis.

Hence the use of the word hardliner.

	11-06-2003 02:58									#100
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Firelad's not a DL.

may 2002, looks like a resurrected DL

	11-06-2003 02:58									#101
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Sava, I'm not a DL, thank you. I've posted a dozen pictures, if anything. Oppression and Occupation for example. With good command of the English language, it is possible to think up some more

	11-06-2003 03:03									#102
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hence the use of the word hardliner.

Right after..."Yes, but both sides want war..."

	11-06-2003 03:05									#103
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I don't like threadjacking, but I have to prove to you, once and for all, that I'm not a DL

http://www.geocities.com/firelad85/dl.avi

BTW, the song in the background is Erin Go Bragh by Wolfe Tones. Excellent, just downloaded

	11-06-2003 03:06									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Sava may 2002, looks like a resurrected DL

You just haven't paid attention. He's Mark Liprovsky, lefty-Israeli, gay, been to Jacksonville FL (though not so I'd notice ) The other Israeli posters will also vouch for his reality.

	11-06-2003 03:11									#105
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Right after..."Yes, but both sides want war..."

That's because the hardliners are in power.

	11-06-2003 03:11									#106
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The thing is, that some people can't understand the political terms of Israelis. Here, "hardliner" means more or less "lunatic redneck warnik" and normal people are, in respects to War and Peace at least, is a sane-moderate right wing warnik. Like your average baptist redneck I met at Jax... Extreme left is more or less like centrist in the US... Ultra-Super-extreme left (a bit to the right of me) is often like US liberals.

And there are those who don't give a **** and go to be common infantry and get punished by the commander when they tell him he shouldn't have beat up that Pal kid with his gun for nothing (true story)

So let's see... What did we say about the population and what it wants?

	11-06-2003 03:18									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Oerdin, you are making that Iraq war mistake again. There aren't two courses of action (kill people or do nothing). There isn't peace because there aren't people on both sides that want peace. When both sides want war and violence, you get war and violence.

You're making my case for me; as you said there are people who don't want peace. How can you make peace with someone who takes the chirac-like position of no matter the other side offers they will continue their terrorism? You can't. Instead you have no choice but to try to stop them.

	11-06-2003 03:44									#108
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's because the hardliners are in power.

And they proposed the cease fire.

	11-06-2003 05:04									#109
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You just have to love how people keep trying to make false moral equivalents between to groups who's actions are in no way even close to being equivalent. One side is run by terrorists who have always rejected peace and who deliberately target civilians while the other goes far out of its way to try to protect civilians & still achieve military results. One side keeps trying to achieve a peaceful settlement and the other consistently rejects peace. One side is a democracy while the other is a dictatorial kleptocracy in the worst Arab tradition.

Yep, they're equivalent all right.

	11-06-2003 05:36									#110
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Bah.

Firelad - in what brigade was that? (givaty, paratroops, golany, mech-inf?) Did the soldier protest to the superior officers?

I'm sorry, but if an intelligence officer could easily protest when he thought that intelligence he would provide can lead to unnecessary deaths, why can't a soldier protest as well? Call the press? Make some noise?

I'm all for punishing the heck out of such beasts, like the reported commanding officer. I'm also pretty sure that if some refusinks were there, serving, they wold have stuck up to the guy, and maybe let the press in on it.

Instead, they sit at home or in jail, whining about acts they can't prove, since they hardly were at the scene.

It is exactly because peace loving people refuse to go to the army, that there are many such cases that are hushed up. Obviously if all peace-loving people refuse to serve, the only ones left to serve will be socio-paths.



And as for the assassination today - some people say that Israel is evil because it wanted to stop the cease fire between Hamas and Israel.

First point - such a cease fire is not an equal one and never really held up (as Edan mentioned earlier)

Second point - there is absolutely no sense in a cease fire with Hamas, when it admits that even a "cease fire" will be only tactical, temporary and will never lead to the eventual demilitarization.

And if anyone thinks that this "cease fire" would not play into Hamas hands, then he's delusional. This would give them time to restore operative network and command chain, and supplies. Then 6 months later, when ever they want - they can fight Israel, this time with even greater success.


Abu Mazen himself said that contrary to what's demanded of him in the Road Map, he has no intentions of fighting against Hamas or dismantling it. Contrary to specific demands made by the Americans, Abu Mazen wanted to convince Hamas to declare a cease fire with Israel.


Such a cease fire is called a "Hudna". This is a historical and religious term relating to a temporary, tactical cease fire that muslims make when fighting non-muslims, in order to gather strength, and in preperation for a future decisive attack.

This is in no way a meaningfull cease fire. Neither in it's intentions (better position in future conflict) nor in it's implementation (Hamas still gets to target Israeli military targets, as well as civilian targets in the disputed territories).

	11-06-2003 05:46									#111
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Oh and as an answer for those who claim that Israel doesn't care for the by-standers.

Do you know what is the cause of this (and many other) assassination attempts failing to kill the subject? Even when there are 6 missiles that hit him directly?

Because Israel has been constantly weakening the missile heads, in an attempt to minimize the blast and make sure there are as little by-standers hurt as possible.

As a result, when a missile strikes the car front, those sitting in the back often survive with only light injuries.

If we'd send a fully loaded missile, there'd be just a big bump on the road, and 12 people dead.

	11-06-2003 06:54									#112
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And yet they killed 5 by-standers and injured 80. Yes, they are going far out of their way.

	11-06-2003 09:07									#113
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And yet they killed 5 by-standers and injured 80.

Uhh, no. Two bystandards - including one of Rantisi's bodyguards - were killed and twenty seven were injured.

	11-06-2003 09:16									#114
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Oh, to clafiry Israel never made any offer of a cease-fire. The ceasefire negotiations have all been between Palestinains factions, ussually with Eygptian moderation. So, again, the Israeli government has made no offers of a ceasefire whatsoever: their line is that Abbas must crack down on militants, or they will. That does not douns like some ceasefire offer.

	11-06-2003 09:28									#115
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"Israel has said that for now it would accept a ceasefire from the militants, though it wants Palestinian officials to disarm and disband the groups as soon as possible"

Yeah, no offer of a cease fire.

	11-06-2003 09:31									#116
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Hmm, if you guys call a ceasefire on your own initiative, we will agree to it.

That is not the same as saying... Hey, you guys want a ceasefire?
All the impetus is with the Pals to work it out.

So Yes, no Israeli offer of a ceasefire.

	11-06-2003 09:35									#117
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Oh, nice semantics. You said Israel refused to consider a ceasefire, that it wanted either Abbas or Israel to immediately crack down on the groups. That isn't true.

It doesn't matter who offered it or not. Israel said it would accept a ceasefire. Hamas said it never would. Therefore, no ceasefire happens.

	11-06-2003 09:39									#118
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Oerding, I think you meant: One side is run by terrorists who have always rejected peace and who deliberately target civilians while the other is run by palestinians...


The only good thing to come out of this seems to be that Bush's ire has been raised... Maybe this will rip off the veil from his eyes regarding Israels intentions. Most likely not, but every little drop contributes.

	11-06-2003 09:41									#119
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Yes, semantics. Given the fact we communicate with words, semantic matter.

I never said Israel refused a ceasefire:

quote: Oh, to clafiry Israel never made any offer of a cease-fire. The ceasefire negotiations have all been between Palestinains factions, ussually with Eygptian moderation. So, again, the Israeli government has made no offers of a ceasefire whatsoever: their line is that Abbas must crack down on militants, or they will. That does not douns like some ceasefire offer.

Notice how in your very own headline it says:

quote: thought it wants palestinians officials to disarm and disband the groups as soon as possible

What your piece says is if the militants agree to cut violence, then Israel for its part will too (so impetus, as i have said, lies with the pals) but it still wants a crackdown (disarming and disbanning) by Abbas.

Where I was wrong is whatsoever. Sp I will change it to:

"Israel has made no ceasefire offers of its own, but will honor what Pals decide among themselves".

Is that better for you?

	11-06-2003 09:44									#120
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Where I was wrong is whatsoever. Sp I will change it to: "Israel has made no ceasefire offers of its own, but will honor what Pals decide among themselves". Is that better for you?

Yes, much.