11-06-2003 21:13									#31
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Abbas seems a weak man, anyway. More like an alibi for both sides than anything else.

	11-06-2003 21:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion You still sound like the 15 year old guy... who was ever talking about ignoring illegal shipments?

It comes with the support.

Had Israel taken over Arafat's airplane that was used to smuggle weapons, say, sometime in 1997, the Hamas would've started a terror wave and everyone would've blamed Israel for provoking them.

quote: Of course the main priority has to be the elimination of the most evil cells.

"most evil"? What is that exactly?
Palestinian Policemen, trained by the CIA to fight terror are participating in the attacks on Israel, after they were given a freedom of action during the happy Oslo years. Shall we repeat the experiment again?

quote: But I suppose it's futile to argue anyway. You're just waiting for the S-guy to turn up.

	11-06-2003 21:16									#33
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Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa. How does that sound?

As for the policemen to fight terror turning against I-land - that's a bummer. They're not supposed to do that

	11-06-2003 21:16									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion In Germany, refugee camps can't be booby trapped because 1. there are no refugee camps, people live in cities here and 2. there are camps for asylum seekers, but it's not like they'd stay there longer than a day or 2 (no bullshit now, please) or they'd actually manage to get sh!t in there.

Which is irrelevant.

You argued that Israel should've used other methods to get the terrorists in Jenin*, I explained why it wasnt possible, answer to the point or admit you're wrong.


-* Mmany other cities were also as thoroughly checked, Jenin simply was the site of the major Israeli ****-up(13 dead soldiers in one battle) and the highest cocentration of Pal propaganda.

	11-06-2003 21:17									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa. How does that sound? As for the policemen to fight terror turning against I-land - that's a bummer. They're not supposed to do that

Then why shouldnt they be a target, together with the Hamas and the others?

	11-06-2003 21:21									#36
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Terrible.

And, as usual, terrorists cowardly targeting innocents directly. Why anyone would look upon deranged individuals like that as heroes and martyrs is beyond me. The hate among Palestinians who condone these acts must be monumental. One could fear that hatred on this scale will never disappear, whether a peace accord is reached or not. Truely depressing.

	11-06-2003 21:21									#37
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not every guy in such a camp is a terrorist. you figure out where they are and don't give a damn about all those wannabes. if they shoot at you, shoot back. no reason to crush every house? or even to enter them.

if they hide behind a window, blast them away. shouldn't eradicate all of the house.

and even if "civilians" with weapons and maybe even in wheelchairs for the western press hide also in the places that are actually important (ie facilities for explosives production etc.), they shouldn't make up to the amount of "civilian" casualties that we have seen. Unless you need a big blast to convince your population they should vote for you again

or, maybe, unless you think that destroying every lousy training camp etc. discourages your opponents in a satisfying way, which hardly happened, apart from the short term solution.

fight their infrastructure, not their kids. and hey, terrorist infrastructure != civilian infrastructure

tip for future debates - it's quite early to acuse the other side of being "wrong" before any actual statement was made. would you know where exactly I'd have to admit to being "wrong". hardly.

	11-06-2003 21:22									#38
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they should, the argument is about babies and pregnant women. oh, wait, once they had an explosive capsule in a pregnant woman

	11-06-2003 21:25									#39
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quote: I'd just like to point out that Abbas has specifically said, that he would NOT engage other palestinian organizations by force. So, if he won't do it, who will?

Um... maybe because he doesn't want to start a civil war, which would be MORE devestating?

--

What did you guys expect? You go after a Hamas leader, and you don't think they'd retaliate? Come on! Every time you go after one of them, there will be a retaliation.. so don't act surprised when one does happen. You are just goading them on!

	11-06-2003 21:25									#40
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hi ,

16 down so far , .....

when are some people going to understand that they dont want peace , when , ......

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 21:27									#41
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I'm not going to get into this argument, but I'd just like to point out that the operation that was laid out today by the IDF was not a retaliation to today's suicide bombing. Targeted assassinations are usually planned months ahead, and are executed when a window of opportunity opens up.
Also, AFAIK the IDF had abandoned the policy of violent retaliations long ago. At most, we disallow Palestinians living in a couple of cities to cross the border to Israel to go to work the following half a week or week.
Finally, the Hamas never retaliates to assassinations. For the past few years they have constantly worked out to fulfill all of their potential. There is rarely a noticeable increase in activity following assassinations, Military Intelligence says.

	11-06-2003 21:28									#42
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we're outnumbered!

retreat!

	11-06-2003 21:28									#43
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what must I see... emperor?

	11-06-2003 21:31									#44
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Join a few demogames, you'll be deity in no time

	11-06-2003 21:31									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion not every guy in such a camp is a terrorist. you figure out where they are and don't give a damn about all those wannabes. if they shoot at you, shoot back. no reason to crush every house? or even to enter them.

What if they are inside the house? Among the population, hiding?

When you shoot back you risk hitting someone else, someone innocent?

What if the only way to avoid losing tens of your men is avoiding the narrow alleys and going, literally, through the walls?

Give the choice, would you rather sacrifice tens of German soldiers, or tens of small brick walls?

quote: if they hide behind a window, blast them away. shouldn't eradicate all of the house.

But they dont. They werent putting a fight, they were trying to hide or kill as many soldiers as possible when they were about to be found.

They werent standing near windows, waiting to be sniped at, they were hiding in the inner rooms.

quote: and even if "civilians" with weapons and maybe even in wheelchairs for the western press hide also in the places that are actually important (ie facilities for explosives production etc.), they shouldn't make up to the amount of "civilian" casualties that we have seen. Unless you need a big blast to convince your population they should vote for you again

Huge population density, tens of soldiers, the need to check every house and house from reasons outlined above, 26 civilian casualties is nothing. Hell, the US Army asked the IDF to explain how we managed to do it.

quote: or, maybe, unless you think that destroying every lousy training camp etc. discourages your opponents in a satisfying way, which hardly happened, apart from the short term solution.

The goal was to kill or arrest all terrorists and destroy the bomb factories and other facilites.
Short term solutions? A huge decrease in terror for more than a year now was definetely worth it.

Besides, a German shouldnt talk about solutions.

quote: fight their infrastructure, not their kids. and hey, terrorist infrastructure != civilian infrastructure

Terrorist infrastructure is INSIDE the civilian infrastructure.

quote: tip for future debates - it's quite early to acuse the other side of being "wrong" before any actual statement was made. would you know where exactly I'd have to admit to being "wrong". hardly.

Bla.

	11-06-2003 21:33									#46
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now we're there again... terrorists are INSIDE of the civilians?

	11-06-2003 21:34									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion not every guy in such a camp is a terrorist. you figure out where they are and don't give a damn about all those wannabes. if they shoot at you, shoot back. no reason to crush every house? or even to enter them. if they hide behind a window, blast them away. shouldn't eradicate all of the house. and even if "civilians" with weapons and maybe even in wheelchairs for the western press hide also in the places that are actually important (ie facilities for explosives production etc.), they shouldn't make up to the amount of "civilian" casualties that we have seen. Unless you need a big blast to convince your population they should vote for you again or, maybe, unless you think that destroying every lousy training camp etc. discourages your opponents in a satisfying way, which hardly happened, apart from the short term solution. fight their infrastructure, not their kids. and hey, terrorist infrastructure != civilian infrastructure tip for future debates - it's quite early to acuse the other side of being "wrong" before any actual statement was made. would you know where exactly I'd have to admit to being "wrong". hardly.

have you ever studied the IDF's "doctrine" , .... probably not , ....

	11-06-2003 21:34									#48
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It's clear that Israel must be destroyed. After all the Israelis are the interlopers forced on the region by the great powers. They are the troublemakers, not the Arabs - religious claims to pieces of land are hogwash and should be treated as such. Send the Israelis somewhere like the US, where they are well liked.

Problem solved.

	11-06-2003 21:35									#49
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quote: What did you guys expect? You go after a Hamas leader, and you don't think they'd retaliate? Come on! Every time you go after one of them, there will be a retaliation.. so don't act surprised when one does happen.

Is that why 10 suicide bombers were arrested only in the past week? And every day the security system had 50+ warning of attacks in the making?

quote: You are just goading them on!

They are goading me on! I'm gonna blow up in Gaza!
Will it be largely my fault, or of the Pals?

	11-06-2003 21:35									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's clear that Israel must be destroyed. After all the Israelis are the interlopers forced on the region by the great powers. They are the troublemakers, not the Arabs - religious claims to pieces of land are hogwash and should be treated as such. Send the Israelis somewhere like the US, where they are well liked. Problem solved.

go and post your bs somewhere else

its clear that you know nothing of whats going on or about our history

and if we are the troublemakers then why do you post in a thread made by one , ....

	11-06-2003 21:36									#51
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panag, please... that's like an elementary school level reply

Agathon, please...

	11-06-2003 21:36									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion now we're there again... terrorists are INSIDE of the civilians?

Since you have no meaningful reply, I assume that you admit that i'm right and you're wrong.

Have a nice day.

	11-06-2003 21:36									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What did you guys expect? You go after a Hamas leader, and you don't think they'd retaliate?

If Israel didn't go after the Hamas leader, you think they wouldn't attack Israel?


As pointed out in another thread, the last time Israel targetted and killed a large number of terror leaders, the terrorism was less frequent because the group needed time to retrain new leaders to take their places.

	11-06-2003 21:37									#54
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what did I just advise to you? your reply was only "blah ", how meaningful.

as for your reply - I might read it later on, I only needed that line

	11-06-2003 21:37									#55
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panag, Agathon is being sarcastic.... and if not, he's to be ignored. like Eli

	11-06-2003 21:43									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Edan If Israel didn't go after the Hamas leader, you think they wouldn't attack Israel? As pointed out in another thread, the last time Israel targetted and killed a large number of terror leaders, the terrorism was less frequent because the group needed time to retrain new leaders to take their places.

hi ,

they seem to forget as always that they kill also other people , americans , french , indians , you name it , catholics , druze , kopt , orhodox greeks , .... etc , ....

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 21:44									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion panag, Agathon is being sarcastic.... and if not, he's to be ignored. like Eli

this is not a thread to be "sarcastic" in , ....

and if eli is to be ignored , then what are you doing posting in the thread he made , ....

	11-06-2003 21:44									#58
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Well, since Aqaba there have been 10 suicide bombing attemps, that were foiled by IDF.

This one was no reaction to the attack on Rantisi. It takes weeks to organize and send out a bomber.

Israel does not intend to get a cease fire with Hamas. Either Abu Mazen fights them, or we will - using our own methods.

	11-06-2003 21:47									#59
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why does it take weeks? as I have understood, there is quite some support for those groups among young people, so finding a guy t do it shouldn't be too hard. now, ignition and explosives, how hard to arrange?

	11-06-2003 21:54									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion why does it take weeks? as I have understood, there is quite some support for those groups among young people, so finding a guy t do it shouldn't be too hard. now, ignition and explosives, how hard to arrange?

Suicide bomber in Jenin.
One bomb ingredient in Hebron, other in Tul Karem.
Gather intelligence about IDF roadblocks and positions, avoid the curfews, sieges and roadblocks. All this only to bring the bomb components to one place, to the bomb maker. Then do the same to get the bomb to the suicider.

Gather intelligence about the target, about ways to pass the IDF, about ways to escape the police inside Israel, about the security at the target, now the suicider needs to make all the trip(and not get caught, in which case you'll never hear about it in Germany) and blow up.

It takes weeks.