11-06-2003 22:42									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion go back to your diamonds and the gold that you robbed from other people by sneaking them on loan deals, Jew

That's good for one week. Damn, Ming let you slack off, though.

Lucky for you he checks his poly email more often than I check mine.

	11-06-2003 22:43									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Eh?

I was talkin about the ppl who cmitted these murders relax

	11-06-2003 22:45									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon At least somebody gets it. To the Israelis here: sure you have an interest in what's going on, but you can't expect everyone to agree with you all the time. If you can't see that the Palestinians have been hard done by, both by Israel and by the World Community, then I despair for you. These people are living under a form of apartheid. It's a bit unfair to expect them to play nice when they don't get any joy from anyone and the supposed "impartial" negotiator just isn't. They have no vote or civil rights - do you expect them to just lie down and take it. Israel is going to have to give up a lot to make things better - and it should, by rights, give up a lot more. Under the United Nations declaration of human rights everyone has a right to return to his or her country. This goes for the Palestinian refugees no less than anyone else. The only reason Israel has for stopping them returning to their own country is that Arabs would wield a great deal more electoral power in Israel than they currently do. Most civilised countries do not prevent immigration on basis of race and to run a country based on purity of race is anathema to the most basic notions of human rights.

hi ,

wake up , we dont stop them , but we stop people who have nothing to do here , ......

you can expect from someone who goes to iraq in 1940 and maries there to come back , even if he is allowed then still his wife's uncle should not be let in , ... those are the rules of immigration , and they tend to be the same in any other country , ...

as long as the jews who had to flee the arab world are not allowed to go back , ....

but that is not the whole point , we do allow people to return , we just do allow them to return with family in the 20th degree , .... the american INS does not allow that neither , .... we do allow that if there is a humanitarian need , for example if no-one else is alive in between the person and the far away relative , ....

you have posted in the past the same , yet you dont listen or answer agathon when it come to Israel , ....

ones again people should know what the thruth is , not some lies , ....

and as to the people who have doubts , the idf website and glz are far better news and events fact listing sites then most mayor worldwide newschannels , ....

and we say the thruth , if we make a mistake , we say so , in public , ..... that can not be said about many of todays leading newspapers in the world , ....

and todays attack in Gaza had nothing to do with the bus , just a small coincidence , ...

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 22:46									#94
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat That's good for one week. Damn, Ming let you slack off, though.

Not too slack... I already nailed him for a week. It will get lifted if he PUBLICLY APOLOGIZES in this thread.

	11-06-2003 22:49									#95
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quote: Originally posted by D' Artagnan I was talkin about the ppl who cmitted these murders relax

I was talking about the whole lot of them (IDF included). Perhaps the IDF should be renamed the PWF (Palestinian Whacking Forces) since that's what they spend most of their time doing.

Don't worry - I am perfectly relaxed. I just don't see any point in taking sides here. Both sides are wrong to do what they are doing, but the Israelis hold most of the cards. Hence, they should take the preponderance of the blame.

How desperate do you have to be to start sending suicide bombers out? Pretty desperate I imagine.

	11-06-2003 22:49									#96
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quote: If Israel didn't go after the Hamas leader, you think they wouldn't attack Israel?

But you are giving them a justification to do so. More people are going to say, yeah, the Israelis are trying to kill us, so why are we just sitting around doing nothing... and more people will back Hamas. It's a self-destructive policy that you will NEVER win!

	11-06-2003 22:51									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon How desperate do you have to be to start sending suicide bombers out? Pretty desperate I imagine.

Yeah, I'll bet Bin Laden was desperate...

	11-06-2003 22:55									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But you are giving them a justification to do so. More people are going to say, yeah, the Israelis are trying to kill us, so why are we just sitting around doing nothing... and more people will back Hamas. It's a self-destructive policy that you will NEVER win!

First off, as I pointed out, it does produce results. The time when Israel had the most amount of suicide bombers were back in March 2002 - [i]before[i] the IDF went into the West Bank in April. Ignoring terrorism doesn't solve the problem - it makes it worse. Thats why when Clinton didn't hit back at Al Qaeda hard enough, their terror attacks only got bigger.

One way or another these terror groups have to be eliminated - be it by voluntary disarmming or by force. But coddling them won't produce results - well, not good results.

	11-06-2003 22:56									#99
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quote: Originally posted by panag wake up , we dont stop them , but we stop people who have nothing to do here , ......

quote: you can expect from someone who goes to iraq in 1940 and maries there to come back , even if he is allowed then still his wife's uncle should not be let in , ... those are the rules of immigration , and they tend to be the same in any other country , ...

What about their confiscated property?

quote: as long as the jews who had to flee the arab world are not allowed to go back , ....

This sounds good, but it is flawed reasoning. Compare: "I should be allowed to do bad things, because other people are doing them."

quote: but that is not the whole point , we do allow people to return , we just do allow them to return with family in the 20th degree , .... the american INS does not allow that neither , .... we do allow that if there is a humanitarian need , for example if no-one else is alive in between the person and the far away relative , ....

I'd like to see some independent verification of this.

quote: you have posted in the past the same , yet you dont listen or answer agathon when it come to Israel , ....

Just because I'm not rabidly pro-Israel, doesn't mean I don't listen.

quote: and as to the people who have doubts , the idf website and glz are far better news and events fact listing sites then most mayor worldwide newschannels , ....

Because they take your side. I see....

quote: and we say the thruth , if we make a mistake , we say so , in public , ..... that can not be said about many of todays leading newspapers in the world , ....

It's a mistake to occupy these territories and deny the people who live there civil rights. It's a mistake to think that if you keep building settlements they will just go away. It's a mistake to think that flagrantly defying the world community will yield good results in the long term.

	11-06-2003 22:58									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Yeah, I'll bet Bin Laden was desperate...

These people are sending out their own children. He wasn't.

	11-06-2003 22:58									#101
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Perhaps you failed to mention the attacks the other day, meant to kill that hamas guy, but ended up killing something like 5 civilians, in spite of the "road map", the Americans condemning this?

Surely the Israelis have learned that when they attack the palestinians, they latter hit back, im not condoning it, but honestly, if what you tried hasnt worked (and force thus far hasnt), then try something else!!

Its pretty much what theyve expected, the Israeli govt should stop endangering the lives of its citizens. Its all very well to blame the Palestinians, but theyre mad for a reason, and while they shuoldnt be launching attacks, to be honest, we expect it of them these days.

	11-06-2003 22:59									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If Israel didn't go after the Hamas leader, you think they wouldn't attack Israel? But you are giving them a justification to do so. More people are going to say, yeah, the Israelis are trying to kill us, so why are we just sitting around doing nothing... and more people will back Hamas. It's a self-destructive policy that you will NEVER win!

hi ,

try to expalin that to victims and survivors of terror , .....

try to say that to a firefighter in NY who was on ground zero , .....

you dont ever , ever negotiate with terror , you blow back as hard as you can , and believe me , in Israel thats the thing we are not doing , ....

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 22:59									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon These people are sending out their own children. He wasn't.

Yeah, well, for $45,000...

	11-06-2003 23:02									#104
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Perhaps you failed to mention the attacks the other day, meant to kill that hamas guy, but ended up killing something like 5 civilians, in spite of the "road map", the Americans condemning this? Surely the Israelis have learned that when they attack the palestinians, they latter hit back, im not condoning it, but honestly, if what you tried hasnt worked (and force thus far hasnt), then try something else!! Its pretty much what theyve expected, the Israeli govt should stop endangering the lives of its citizens. Its all very well to blame the Palestinians, but theyre mad for a reason, and while they shuoldnt be launching attacks, to be honest, we expect it of them these days.

hi ,

"civilians" , .....

two of his bodyguards , ....

and when you house in your house or in your street a know terrorist , dont come and complain later that the police arrested you also , .....

not to mention that video tapes from the cobra's shows that they started to shoot in all directions on the ground , ...... since when does a cobra gunship fire 9 mm , ......

must have missed something last time i saw one , ...

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 23:03									#105
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quote: it does produce results. The time when Israel had the most amount of suicide bombers were back in March 2002 - [i]before[i] the IDF went into the West Bank in April.

All they do then is lie low... while scores of Palestinians are converted to Hamas' course of action. Unless you plan on keeping the IDF there FOREVER, it won't work. As soon as the IDF leaves, you'll have tons of people wanting to join and kill the oppressors.

I've said before, Israel has two options, it can stay in the occupied territories with their armies forever, or it can help build a state and not send troops over whenever it feels like. That's basically it. Israel can't send over troops and then get tired and pull the troops back. All it does is make people mad and cause suicide bombings to continue ad infinitum. And I don't think Israelis want the IDF to permanently occupy the West Bank and Gaza.

	11-06-2003 23:07									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: it does produce results. The time when Israel had the most amount of suicide bombers were back in March 2002 - [i]before[i] the IDF went into the West Bank in April. All they do then is lie low... while scores of Palestinians are converted to Hamas' course of action. Unless you plan on keeping the IDF there FOREVER, it won't work. As soon as the IDF leaves, you'll have tons of people wanting to join and kill the oppressors. I've said before, Israel has two options, it can stay in the occupied territories with their armies forever, or it can help build a state and not send troops over whenever it feels like. That's basically it. Israel can't send over troops and then get tired and pull the troops back. All it does is make people mad and cause suicide bombings to continue ad infinitum. And I don't think Israelis want the IDF to permanently occupy the West Bank and Gaza.

hi ,

a couple notes with that , if the idf leaves , the PA should do what they are being payed to do , .....

and it does produce results

we withdraw each time and we sit over and over again at the peace table cause we believe in a solution , .....

thats why we pull out , ...... over and over again , .....

to many people in our last governments are afraid of going in in a classical miliarty sweep of three months , .....

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 23:10									#107
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quote: Originally posted by D' Artagnan I was talkin about the ppl who cmitted these murders relax

A French? Supporting Israel?

Satan is gonna need a coat soon.

	11-06-2003 23:12									#108
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hi ,

here is the official Israeli MFA statement ;

**At Least 15 Killed in Attack on Jerusalem Bus

At least 15 people were killed and some 70 wounded when a homicide bomber blew himself up on a bus in central Jerusalem on this afternoon, HA'ARETZ reported. Eight of the wounded were reported to be in serious condition, and 17 people were moderately wounded.
The Egged 14 bus was located near the "Klal" building on Jaffa Street, close to the intersection with King George Street. The bus was on its way from the Beit Hakerem neighborhood to Talpiot. U.S. President George W. Bush condemned the Jerusalem bus bombing in the "strongest possible terms."
In other news, Kassam rockets have begun falling again on the town of Sderot today. No one was injured in the latest Islamic Jihad barrage. Overnight Tuesday, there were exchanges of fire along the Israeli-Egyptian border between IDF soldiers and Palestinian terrorists.
Palestinians fired six Kassam rockets on Sderot on Tuesday. One of the rockets landed in an open field and the rest landed in city neighborhoods. Five Israelis were treated for shock. Three Palestinians responsible for firing the rockets on Tuesday were killed in an IDF strike on their vehicle.
Meanwhile, Egyptian Intelligence chief Omar Suleiman met with Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas and other Palestinian leaders in an attempt to secure a cease-fire. The Egyptians have tried in recent months to persuade terror groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad to halt attacks but have had little success.
According to THE JERUSALEM POST, security forces have arrested 10 Palestinians suspected of plotting homicide bombings since the three-way Aqaba Summit a week ago. One of the suspects is a 16-year-old from the West Bank town of Tulkarm, who was destined to carry out an attack in Netanya for Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.


have a nice day

	11-06-2003 23:14									#109
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quote: try to expalin that to victims and survivors of terror , ..... try to say that to a firefighter in NY who was on ground zero

Revenge? Punitive military action? Military action because it looks good politically? IT DOESNT WORK!!!

	11-06-2003 23:14									#110
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hi ,

and here is an other one thats rather intresting from an hour ago ;

**Abbas Appoints New Security Service Head

Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas's decided on Monday to appoint Ziad Haberich as the leader of Palestinian Authority's Preventive Security Service in the West Bank, THE JERUSALEM POST reported. A Palestinian Authority source explained that the appointment would grant Security Minister Muhammad Dahlan the necessary cooperation of the PSS members in the West Bank and might improve Abbas's position within Fatah. The PSS is the main body that will have to fight terrorism and face terror groups in case the PA does not reach an agreement with them.
A PA source close to Abbas said the decision might convince former chief Jibril Rajoub to return to a leadership position within the Palestinian security apparatus. Rajoub welcomed the Haberich appointment, which he reportedly helped to coordinate. Haberich, a Jenin resident, is known to be very close to Rajoub. The two men worked together for years while Rajoub headed the PSS. Rajoub, who was sacked by PA Chairman Yasser Arafat last year, has so far refused to take any security position.
PA sources said the US, Egypt, and Jordan will provide training to the PSS and other policemen whose job it will be to implement the PA's obligations under the road map.

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 23:14									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui it can help build a state and not send troops over whenever it feels like.

Sure, provided that state actively works to end the terrorist groups. But Israel wont go along with the alternative of setting up a state that simply harbors terrorism - that is a disaster waiting to happen. Does the world really nead another Taliban Afghanistan?

	11-06-2003 23:18									#112
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Revenge? Punitive military action? Military action because it looks good politically? IT DOESNT WORK!!!

hi ,

sorry , but it does work , .....

and where is the word "revenge" posted , ... - and where is the word "punitive" posted , .......

dont draw the wrong conclusions

be carefull with that , its plain simple speculation and it does especially in this case not reflect the thruth ( the two words you have used ) !

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 23:21									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Sure, provided that state actively works to end the terrorist groups. But Israel wont go along with the alternative of setting up a state that simply harbors terrorism - that is a disaster waiting to happen. Does the world really nead another Taliban Afghanistan?

hi ,

nope

but what you write seems to reflect exactly what some people in brussels at the eu want , ......

they actually want that to happen , for what ever stupid reason it might be , ....

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 23:28									#114
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quote: provided that state actively works to end the terrorist groups. But Israel wont go along with the alternative of setting up a state that simply harbors terrorism - that is a disaster waiting to happen. Does the world really nead another Taliban Afghanistan?

The state will go a long way, IMO, to reducing terrorism. You won't get all of it away, no. But in talks for statehood, I believe there needs to be a cooperation between the IDF and the new Palestinian security force to work against terrorism. You give Abbas enough power (ie, a real state), and I think the results will be, on the whole, good.

AND, if Palestine as a state doesn't stop terrorism, it'll be much more moral (in the eyes of the world) to declare war and take them out then. Wartime killing will be seen in a better light than occupational killing. Right now it's just bald colonialism.

	11-06-2003 23:30									#115
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If people started thinking less about who has been right or wrong in the past and started thinking about the easiest way to reach a solution, things might actually start happening.

But that is verboten to fanatics.

	11-06-2003 23:31									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: provided that state actively works to end the terrorist groups. But Israel wont go along with the alternative of setting up a state that simply harbors terrorism - that is a disaster waiting to happen. Does the world really nead another Taliban Afghanistan? The state will go a long way, IMO, to reducing terrorism. You won't get all of it away, no. But in talks for statehood, I believe there needs to be a cooperation between the IDF and the new Palestinian security force to work against terrorism. You give Abbas enough power (ie, a real state), and I think the results will be, on the whole, good. AND, if Palestine as a state doesn't stop terrorism, it'll be much more moral (in the eyes of the world) to declare war and take them out then. Wartime killing will be seen in a better light than occupational killing. Right now it's just bald colonialism.

hi ,

huh , we where working side by side , untill the un and the eu started to interfere , .....

and it does has some problems , at day they are working with us , at night they shoot at us , .....

hamas , hez****la and to many other groups recieve active support from the pa and its security forces , ....

and they have infiltrated to many police districts , ....

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 23:32									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If people started thinking less about who has been right or wrong in the past and started thinking about the easiest way to reach a solution, things might actually start happening. But that is verboten to fanatics.

hi ,

what do you think we are doing , ......

why do you think we are talking in jordan , .....

check out the road map thread , ......

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 23:33									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The state will go a long way, IMO, to reducing terrorism.

No it won't. The terrorists will claim that they were the ones that got Israel to withdraw.

quote: You give Abbas enough power (ie, a real state), and I think the results will be, on the whole, good.

Except Abbas doesn't have any power now since Arafat is the one guiding all his actions.

quote: AND, if Palestine as a state doesn't stop terrorism, it'll be much more moral (in the eyes of the world) to declare war and take them out then. Wartime killing will be seen in a better light than occupational killing. Right now it's just bald colonialism.

Except that if that happens - and I'm fairly confident it will - we'll just end up back here, except under worse conditions. IMHO, I'd rather the right steps be taken, then going into a peace process that will fail and only make conditions worse.

what needs to happen is that Abbas has to get control out of the hands of Arafat and into his own, Jordan has to train Palestinian policemen, A rebuilding of the Palestinian economy has to happen - with accountability of where the money is being used, and Abbas has to work with Israel as Israel withdraws and take responsibility of the areas of withdrawl, Israel has to continue dismantling it's outposts, and Abbas will have to confront the terror groups - either disarm them by force or by negotiation. if that can happen, we'd be a lot closer to a lasting peace.

	11-06-2003 23:39									#119
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quote: If people started thinking less about who has been right or wrong in the past and started thinking about the easiest way to reach a solution, things might actually start happening. But that is verboten to fanatics.

This qualifies as one of those rare occasions on which I totally agree with Agathon.

What's done is done. Israel exists and isn't going away. The Palestinian people exist, and clearly aren't going to vanish. Thus, compromise is the only way out.

If the leaders of each side really want peace, they should press ahead with peace negotiations and do their best to ignore the killing. Negotiate under fire, in other words.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 23:46									#120
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quote: The terrorists will claim that they were the ones that got Israel to withdraw.

Yeah, so? Then they'll have to deal with statehood and not just try to get a state. A lot of their support for further attacks will be lessened because the people will ask for more services.

quote: Except Abbas doesn't have any power now since Arafat is the one guiding all his actions.

If you actually have a state with real elections (which can be demanded in a peace settlement and gotten with little hassle), then Abbas WILL have power, if he wins.

quote: Except that if that happens - and I'm fairly confident it will - we'll just end up back here, except under worse conditions.

I doubt that. It'll be a better situation in that case, IMO. You could do kinda what the US is trying in Iraq. Israel doesn't want to get involved in the creation of a Palestinian democracy, so naturally it won't happen unless there is external prodding (like Bush did to get Abbas in power).