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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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A culture is part of ones personality, it is a force that binds people together, whilst serving as the means for educating a people in the ways of that land, that history, that people etc. It is an integral part of how people think, and of what people are, be that a tangible culture or one that is idealised in the mind of the individual, nonetheless, I do not believe that it is ever right to forcibly destroy it.
With regards to the native americans, ask them what they call America before white people came, and they say "ours". Their cultures have been violated abused, and have ended up, as cultures and peoples, being mere shadows of what they once were, creating a disperate group of people in the face of the behemoth that is the USA. That is hardly acceptable either, and is somewhat indicative of the subjective, imperialist dogmas that groups like PNAC, neocons, and many "normal" americans seem to have, and encourage to be forced on others, under the false impression that they are somehow inherently "good".
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
The emoticon says it all. You would forcibly destroy a part of the culture that causes people to want to defend it against those they perceive would destroy it?
Again, hardly acceptable, and hardly plausible either. |
Cry me a river. Intentionally targeting and murdering as many civilians as you can isn't acceptable in my book - not for any culture.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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quote:
Cry me a river. Intentionally targeting and murdering as many civilians as you can isn't acceptable in my book - not for any culture.
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Like all things, they do it for a reason. They are desperate people, and in such situations, desperate people resort to desperate measures. Many muslims who view themselves, and often with good reason, as oppressed, view some terrorists as freedom fighters, the same views, when reversed and applied to the other people, apply to the US admin and army.
Fundamentally, the only real difference between the two cultures, in an objective point of view, is the military strengths. When one doesnt have billion dollar warships and planes, one uses the only weapon one has, which is, oneself. Part of the reason the west hates terrorism so much is because billion dollar warships and planes are no defence against it!
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yavoon
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naziism is just as much an aboration of culture as islamic fundamentalists like the taliban etc...
u are trying to wrap the extremists in w/ the religion. and that is something I think a lot of muslims would take offense to.
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Like all things, they do it for a reason.
[/qb] |
I couldn't care less because it isn't justifiable. They try to murder as many civilians as they can and then hide behind yet more civilians. You cannot justify that, no matter how hard you try using your twisted sense of morality.
It also has less to do with their "culture" and far more to do with the political repression of their governments, that go out of their way to inspire hatred in order to maintain control.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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quote:
u are trying to wrap the extremists in w/ the religion. and that is something I think a lot of muslims would take offense to
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Absolutely not, it is merely in Islam, a culture which has been oppressed and made to suffer for a long time, it is not suprising to find extremist elements, who use the notion of Jihad (which is completely different to anything that would reasonably justify terrorism), to attack targets in the name of Islam. Now many Muslims support these actions, on the basis of ends, as opposed to means, that is not to say that Islam is a terrorist religion, far from it. However, such terrorism is what one would expect from ANY culture when put through the treatment that Islam has, as such, it is more of an extreme evolution of a tiny minority, as opposed to an aberration like nazi germany, which, while in extreme conditions, was not as extreme as the situation we are dealing with here.
quote:
A culture which promotes the killing people based upon their religion or national origin is immora
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Says you and me. Do you advocate the killing of terrorists or the treatment of them in Guantanamo Bay? If so, you are liable to the same opinions from them, as you hold to them.
I am not connecting this to Islam, but if you are to root out the "thing" that causes people to resort to terrorism, in a culture, you would try to change that culture, and as an oppressed society, methinks Islam has had quite enough of that. Instead, I advocate removing the oppression and the factors that cause perceived oppression.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
more of an extreme evolution of a tiny minority, as opposed to an aberration like nazi germany, which, while in extreme conditions, was not as extreme as the situation we are dealing with here.
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naziism was an extreme evolution of a tiny minority based off the oppression and humiliation in the wake of the first world war. how u could not see that as u typed it is amusing.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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quote:
They try to murder as many civilians as they can and then hide behind yet more civilians. You cannot justify that, no matter how hard you try using your twisted sense of morality
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Ahem.. lets keep this non-personal, I always take ad hominems as a sign of inferior reasoning and thus a concession in the argument. Replace morality with objectivity in any case 
They strike at the enemy that is oppressing them, that is killing THEIR civilians. I am not trying to justify it, killing people for a cause is never right, and that applies to EITHER side. I merely like to think that I understand it, and understand both sides of the coin. To which, I have to say, there is no smoke without fire, and it is the West that has incited this terrorism. There is no inherent hatred of the west in people that randomly causes them to fly planes into buildings, it is cultural, it is learned, it is a reaction to the oppression of that culture. If you dont change that culture, then you only have yourselves to blame for future attacks, human nature, and the reactions of a suffering people are something of a constant here.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Again with the ad hominems. It was not as an extreme cause because it only dated back a few years, and was purely economy, thus would not have been remotely permanent. Economic conditions, and national pride, change like the wind in political timelines, cultural conditions, and long-term oppression do not. |
u accuse me of ad hominem because I am amused? don't be so defensive. the reason and results of both radical movements are very similar. chronologically one has lasted longer. and nazi germany was certainly more capable than the arab nations militarily but at their base is still a radical revult that bases itself on hate and oppression and lashes out at those it feels have wronged it.
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Sorry, I mean your (USA) culture, the conditions of political and economic oppression and perceived oppressions, not helped by the misguided rhetoric of certain presidential texans. |
So the US should change it's culture to meet the needs of other cultures?
Why is it ok to force the US to change it's culture, and not ok to force others to change theirs?
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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quote:
don't be so defensive
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Sorry, I havent slept in 72 hours 
The chronology is vastly important. Culturally, nazism was not very well engrained, even with the best propaganda, 12 years, left most people in germany with memory from before Hitler, so could easily adapt and learn new ways. A culture living under the cloud of colonialism, neocolonialism, poltical and economic imperialism, and the power of the USA and Israel etc, for decades if not centuries if you look back to the Turkish/Ottoman empire and the crusades, gives you a completely different animal in terms of cultural perception of the potential target for terrorism.
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yavoon
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so the morality of the movement is based upon how long it has lasted? that hardly seems rational. u'd have to be a pretty far relativist to make a statement like that.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:28
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quote:
So the US should change it's culture to meet the needs of other cultures?
Why is it ok to force the US to change it's culture, and not ok to force others to change theirs?
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Because the USA is breaching the Mill Limit (see link in sig) of those cultures, thus it should scale back, so it is not interfering with other cultures. Viewing a society, a culture as an entity, there is influence, which ideally all should have, then there is impedence, be it political, economic or military, or even social, which is where a culture stretches its tentacles to directly affect another, often without its choice. Islamic cultures are not impeding America in any way, except some intermittent terrorist attacks, that are, like you said, not truly representative of that culture, ignoring of course popular hatred of the USA and its actions.
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12-06-2003 01:40
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