11-06-2003 23:09									#1
	Is our current strategy against terrorism working? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

In history, has there EVER been an example of force, of military action, ever succeeding in stopping terrorism?

I havent found any such case. All I have found is military action serving to incite terrorism, and started either on the whims of revenge from the population who are the victims of terrorism, or for political reasons to be seen as doing *something*.

In the light of the increasing power of organisations like Project for New American century, a group made up of neo-con Reaganites, who have been waiting for "another Pearl Habour", to serve as an excuse to expand the military, economic and political influence of the USA around the globe, in a sort of post-colonialist empire.

I believe that in order to stop terrorism, we must attack the root cause, the thing that is agitating the people to the extent that they feel trapped, limited, oppressed, and out of that rises extreme groups, who can achieve popularity, who evolve into menaces like Al Qaeda. In that case, we should change the expansionist, PNAC-esque foreign policies of the worlds major powers, we should reverse the effects of neo-colonialism, and we should help to repair those nations like Zimbabwe, damaged by colonialism, without proper rebuilding into independent nations, that allow dictators like Mugabe to remain in power. That way, by making the potential terrorists prosperous, happy, with a feeling of autonomy etc etc, one removes the friendly audience for terrorists, who in turn will die out after a while.

Has there ever been an example of force working against terrorism?

	11-06-2003 23:15									#2
	Re: Is our current strategy against terrorism working? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by elijah In history, has there EVER been an example of force, of military action, ever succeeding in stopping terrorism? ... I havent found any such case. Has there ever been an example of force working against terrorism?

Only real example I have is Malaya late 40s-early 60s? Military force on it's own wouldn't have worked, but together with cease fire/peace talks/taking the revolutionaries into the political system, it worked.

I don't think military solutions on their own work... more a case of minimising the attacks while the political route is worked out.

I don't really see intervention in Afghanistan having a permanent effect until aid/redevelopment programs are OK'd by the Afghan leadership, that is the warlords. Having a mayor of Kabul (Karzai) is all very well, but if he sticks his head too far out of Kabul he's liable to get it blown off right now.

	11-06-2003 23:16									#3
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The Philippine insurrection is an example of where a western Army successfully put down a guerrilla force which used terrorist style bombings and sabotage. The French also one the original battle of Algiers where the rebels were, for all intents and purposes, nothing but a bunch of terrorists.

Of course in both of those wars the winners, both American and French, didn't exactly follow the modern idea of respecting human rights. Nope, they won for the soul reason that they were willing to be absolutely ruthless. The tortured, imprisoned, round up, relocated, or other wise detained anyone whom they even suspected of knowing the slightest bit of information. They also used the old Mongol tactic of mass punishment where if an attack or attacker came from a village then the whole village was burned and the people imprisioned unless they ratted out the culprits.

Nice little clean wars they were not, but, they are examples of how terrorist using forces were defeated in the past.

	11-06-2003 23:18									#4
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quote: we should reverse the effects of neo-colonialism, and we should help to repair those nations like Zimbabwe, damaged by colonialism, without proper rebuilding into independent nations, that allow dictators like Mugabe to remain in power.

Here is the problem. Trying to do anything in Zimbabwe will be seen as colonialism, even if it is for good. Apparently the people don't seem to dislike Mugabe, even if he is a prat.

The main problem is that in trying to do good in the world, you come off being seen as a colonial power. I say, who cares. Let them see us as 'colonial', there are important things to do out there.

	11-06-2003 23:19									#5
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Using Military action, while expensive on resources gives the Military something to do.

With your proposals we would simply bankrupt ourselves.

	11-06-2003 23:20									#6
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The only problem in the WoT are that the groups being sought are too amorphous to be stopped by conventional militaries. You can put a dent here and there, but theyll keep popping up like a bad STD.

	11-06-2003 23:22									#7
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quote: Trying to do anything in Zimbabwe will be seen as colonialism, even if it is for good

Of course, but I meant we should have when we (the British) pulled out.

	11-06-2003 23:24									#8
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quote: The Philippine insurrection is an example of where a western Army successfully put down a guerrilla force which used terrorist style bombings and sabotage

But that was a military force, not sociological-caused terrorism like current Islamic fundamentalism etc.

	11-06-2003 23:25									#9
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quote: Military force on it's own wouldn't have worked, but together with cease fire/peace talks/taking the revolutionaries into the political system, it worked

So carrot and stick? The problem there is that the stick was offered before the carrot, thus people died in the interim, still, that approach worked.

	11-06-2003 23:25									#10
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quote: Of course, but I meant we should have when we (the British) pulled out.

Even then... I mean, when the British pulled out the people of Rhodesia (before the name change) didn't want anything to do with the British trying to improve the infrastructure. They heard they were going home, so they wanted them out.

Rebuilding is seen as colonialism.

	11-06-2003 23:26									#11
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One could argue that the American Indians became terrorists when they started raping, killing and pilaging settlers up and down the western frontier and over hundreds of years the military beat them into ultimate submission as they pose absolutely no threat now. A difference with the American Indian times to now, is we colonized right behind the military victories.

	11-06-2003 23:27									#12
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But before we pulled out, we should have given them the instruments and institutions of state, instead of forcing them to manage on their own. Can we really be suprised the post-colony nations have lame economies and dictators?

	11-06-2003 23:28									#13
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Look up the battle of Algiers. The French broke the primary terrorist network by torturing every terrorist they captured until he gave up the man above him. They kept that up until they got to the big man himself then they shot him.

	11-06-2003 23:28									#14
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quote: over hundreds of years the military beat them into ultimate submission as they pose absolutely no threat now

Is that acceptable, then and now, is it plausible?

	11-06-2003 23:30									#15
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Sending a conventional army to fight terrorists is a bit like expecting the coastguard to put out fires. Terrorism is better controlled with police-type institutions, because it's more like organised crime than an enemy army, whatever pretentious name the group has.

	11-06-2003 23:30									#16
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quote: But before we pulled out, we should have given them the instruments and institutions of state, instead of forcing them to manage on their own. Can we really be suprised the post-colony nations have lame economies and dictators?

Well, like I said, the problem is that in giving these things, the pressure will INCREASE into leaving early. I mean, that (instruments and institutions) will take decades. Zimbabwe might still be British, if that is what they tried to do . When things get bad, you just want to leave. You don't want to stay and try to build up infrastructure for another ten years when the people want you to get the Hell out.

Most colonial powers weren't as good as the US in the Philippines.

	11-06-2003 23:30									#17
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quote: Look up the battle of Algiers. The French broke the primary terrorist network by torturing every terrorist they captured until he gave up the man above him. They kept that up until they got to the big man himself then they shot him.

Which caused resentment in the population, and algerians are still a high-risk population for terrorism.

	11-06-2003 23:32									#18
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Lets use Israel and Palestine,
If Israel was to use maxium effort in their military to all Palestine territory and then settled right behind, over a hundred years, I don't see how Palestine could survive, the obviouse difference being, the rest of the world would not let it happen.

	11-06-2003 23:34									#19
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And the Palestinians would not exist as a viable people. Hardly an acceptable option really. What are we going to do, crush Islam?

	11-06-2003 23:36									#20
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I am less sure of this but the history buffs can help me. Pirates were considered terrorists and finally England, America and France had enough and sent their navy to the Barbary Coast(I believe), kicked the snot out of every Pirate ship they could find and then France colonized Libya with 1,000,000 residents and to my knowledge the Pirate era ended.
Maybe the answer to terrorism is colonization!!!!!

	11-06-2003 23:38									#21
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But was it sociological crime/terrorism?

IIRC, piracy is still a problem

	11-06-2003 23:39									#22
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actually, there are lots of examples:

the Phillipines, and Malaya are good ones, also see:

The Great Arab Revolt of 1936-1939.

Another thing: If push comes to shovel, any western military can use a vast amount of weaponary, and still obey the laws of combat.

Even in Iraq, the USA didn't use it's forces to the most capacity. Artillery was not used in cities, for example.

So yes, this is very possible.

	11-06-2003 23:39									#23
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You are right the Palestines would not exist as a people but assimilated into the Israeli community just as the American Indians are now part of Americans.
This is not about destroying Islam unless Islam is the route of all terrorism which I believe nobody would agree to, certainly not me.

	11-06-2003 23:49									#24
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Is it acceptable to destroy a culture or alienate the people, in order to stop the actions of a tiny minority of them, that represent little actual tactical threat?

	11-06-2003 23:58									#25
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That is why it is imparative that the terroists look at history, because they are risking their entire history on their actions. Hammas should be visiting Washington every single moment Israel hits Palestine and NOT respond with terrorism, that kind of pressure from the American people to our gov't would have a legitimate state for Palestine in no time and now they can be protected. But every single time Hammas blows someone up, espeically women and children, the Americans will never look soley at Israel for the responsibilty of the Middle East crisis and death and destruction continues.

	12-06-2003 00:00									#26
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True, while I dont condone Hamas, I condemn Israel for not using their brains and realising that if they attack, Hamas will attack back and kill Israeli citizens. A governments duty is to safeguard the lives of its citizens which it is negating.

I dont like what Hamas is doing, but I understand it.

	12-06-2003 00:04									#27
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Point is now, that whether Israel attacks or not, Hamas will continue to attack for they want the Zionists purged from their soil and now does it make sense for colonization by Israel?

	12-06-2003 00:06									#28
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Not at all, because what Hamas wants and what it will take to stop them are two different things. A palestinian state, with equal funding to Israel, plus peace anda reasonable economy will cause support to fall away from Hamas, in which case, the mostly likely thing is that it will be attacked by the Palestinians!!!

	12-06-2003 00:08									#29
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Elijah,
From your mouth to God's ear, if that is it and Abbas then could control Hamas or eliminate them, I would be all for it.

	12-06-2003 00:13									#30
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I have no problem destroying cultures. Cultures are just tools to make societies better. And some cultures are obsolete.