12-06-2003 03:58									#91
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I allow that benign morality or choice is subjective. but I hardly think morality as a whole is subjective. morality does exist and is there, u even called upon some(the mill limit). so I can't see how u can stretch taht across cultural boundaries then contend that morality is a fallacy.

if its not evident tho, I am not a relativist.

	12-06-2003 03:59									#92
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quote: Get some sleep

Nah, I'm trying to make 168 (to see how long I sleep at the end of it, and I'm bored so I need to "maximise my hours" in order to attempt to show the wayward the errors of their ways jk

	12-06-2003 04:01									#93
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my god... how do you stay up that long?

i can barely stay up for 36 hours... perhaps cause im always so tired...

	12-06-2003 04:03									#94
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quote: u even called upon some(the mill limit)

A form of morality in the human context, but in this social context, it is objective, in that it allows for all to occur, with equal validity, except for those to impede the right of another to make a valid claim (maintaining its own objectivity). I was usign it with regards to culture A vs culture B.

quote: morality does exist

Where? Define it for all humanity, for America and Islam.

quote: so I can't see how u can stretch taht across cultural boundaries

On the contrary, the fact that such a large context is being used shows that a subjective "small picture" concept like morality does NOT in fact apply, because it only affects that one person, or at most that one culture. Different positions are based on different assumptions and thus, one cannot put ones own position, based on a particular set of assumptions, onto another, which is based on another set of assumptions. That is really basic reasoning iirc.

	12-06-2003 04:03									#95
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I stayed up about 70 hours once. It gets easy fter a certain point, but I wouldn't dream of doing it again...

	12-06-2003 04:04									#96
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quote: my god... how do you stay up that long?

Coffee

	12-06-2003 04:06									#97
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Coffee

Amateur. I only ever used excercise and soda. Lots of soda.

	12-06-2003 04:06									#98
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Ah!! I am in the presence of greatness!

	12-06-2003 04:07									#99
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quote: Originally posted by elijah A form of morality in the human context, but in this social context, it is objective, in that it allows for all to occur, with equal validity, except for those to impede the right of another to make a valid claim (maintaining its own objectivity). I was usign it with regards to culture A vs culture B.

disclaimer, I am not gna discuss morality for 6 pages w/ u so please don't bait me into it.

it does not give equal validity because it precludes all that impede regardless of intention and in general is a limit upon relativism. infact the mill limit is distinctly NOT PRESENT in islam(oppression reigns, impedance is abundant). so u saying that something like the mill limit should protect islam is a little silly.

	12-06-2003 04:13									#100
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quote: disclaimer, I am not gna discuss morality for 6 pages w/ u so please don't bait me into it

PM me if you want, I'm writing a massive essay on it *cries in pain* so some input would be interesting.

quote: it precludes all that impede regardless of intention

Not at all, there is influence, passive impedence (environmental... in this case the existence of the American nation), and active impedence (the USA oppressing other cultures).

quote: infact the mill limit is distinctly NOT PRESENT in islam(oppression reigns, impedance is abundant).

Irrelevent, it is a different culture, thus a different entity with regards to America, as such, I think that America shuold let it be, shuold not interfere in other cultures.

quote: so u saying that something like the mill limit should protect islam is a little silly.

How a society treats its individuals is wholly unrelated to how a society should be treated by other societies. There are entities and then constituent entities in the case of the individual. The USA placing itself in the position of the judge of "do unto others as ye would have done yourself" is hardly desireable (see anger generated when reading PNAC material).

	12-06-2003 04:17									#101
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I dont see how u legitimately separate societal interaction from individual interaction or intra cultural interaction w/o simply giving the latter two the right to break the moral rule just cuz u said so.

and thusly ur point of irrelevance is still a sidestep. if someone accepts the mill limit as a guiding moral value and then ignores it in the vast majority of all interactions(inter personal). then that person is intellectually dishonest or politically corrupt. I mean it in a good way tho!=]

	12-06-2003 04:22									#102
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quote: I dont see how u legitimately separate societal interaction from individual interaction or intra cultural interaction

Because societal interaction can extend to influence and passive impedence, but according to the Mill Limit, neither has the right of active impedence.

quote: and thusly ur point of irrelevance is still a sidestep. if someone accepts the mill limit as a guiding moral value and then ignores it in the vast majority of all interactions(inter personal). then that person is intellectually dishonest or politically corrupt. I mean it in a good way tho!=]

I dont see why. On the national/cultural level, it simply becomes something like a non-interference directive, only specific of course in terms of impeding that society actively. On the personal level, that actual society can run itself how it wishes, though imo ideally the Mill Limit. Linking the two is like saying that I should treat other people how I treat my blood cells, because the latter is the same consituent part of my body as individuals are to a society (ignoring of course the word "individual" as a consciousness, but then, with regards to societal interactions thats not really relevant). Actually thats quite a nice analogy really .

	12-06-2003 04:25									#103
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ur analogy is god awful. do I really have to reply to this?

societal interaction is to interpersonal reaction as interpersonal reaction is to blood cells?

I mean c'mon=[ baby jesus is crying.

all forms of interactions can take up active impedance and influence so I'm not sure what ur really distinguishing in the first part.

	12-06-2003 04:25									#104
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Says you and me. Do you advocate the killing of terrorists or the treatment of them in Guantanamo Bay? If so, you are liable to the same opinions from them, as you hold to them.

Moral relativist drivil. There have been dozens of books written (not to mention threads here on 'poly) as to why moral relativism is total junk.

	12-06-2003 04:29									#105
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quote: all forms of interactions can take up active impedance and influence

Someone is sitting on a bench. They are preventing me from sitting on that bench, which is passive impedence. I ask them to stand up and let me sit down, that is influence (voice goes into brain, brain interprets etc etc). They refuse so I physically throw them off. That is active impedence. Your argument is based on the assumption that passive impedence is the same as active, whereas it is clear that while one is intentional and directed, the other is merely required for that persons being (ok sitting on a bench, but food and air etc), and thus to react to that passive impedence to forcibly rectify it would be to use active impedence. This all boils down until you get an equilibrium, and that is the Mill Limit.

You are saying that a society should treat other societies the way it treats its individuals? Why is my analogy "god awful". Reason with me here, baby jesus needs his nappy changing!

	12-06-2003 04:32									#106
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quote: moral relativism is total junk.

Why is it junk?

My position is merely (psuedo) objective because I can see it from the US pov, how it views the terrorists and their communities, and how they view the US, and I see that both are equally valid opinions, and I also see that number of guns and warships is hardly a good method for determining which one wins and trounces the other, because I dont see that outcome or that means being necessary. Coexist here baby!

	12-06-2003 04:32									#107
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no elijah somewhere you have elaborated my point out 10x into much more than it is. what I am saying is that values like the mill limit can not be morally held at the societal level and then ignored at the interpersonal level w/o the person being intellectually dishonest or politically corrupt...but in a good way! etc etc. so saying that islam has a right to be protected by a moral it does not uphold and infact rigorously violates is a farce.

	12-06-2003 04:34									#108
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Why? Why cant one treat a society differently to the way that society treats its individuals?

	12-06-2003 04:36									#109
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fine prove to me that the mill limit does not apply in interpersonal reaction but does apply on societal interaction. what is it about the mill limit that limits it to societal interaction? etc...

	12-06-2003 04:36									#110
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Im not multiplying it, when that is fundamentally what you are saying, that one cannot hold a value like the Mill Limit, as that society regarding other societies, and not hold it for its own individuals. I ask why it cant, and why it is dishonest?

It assumes that the different society is the same as an individual, whereas that is clearly not the case. I live in Britain which has about 60 million people, the society will treat them differently to the way it treats France or the USA or Nepal.

	12-06-2003 04:39									#111
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ur sidestepping. u r trying to be general w/ things like "treat." I am being specific, "mill limit." I am asking you to tell me why you can uphold a moral like the mill limit on one level of interaction but not on another. responding w/ "why not" is not generally considered a valid retort.

	12-06-2003 04:40									#112
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quote: fine prove to me that the mill limit does not apply in interpersonal reaction but does apply on societal interaction. what is it about the mill limit that limits it to societal interaction?

Whoaaa slow down there monsieur velocitie!! With regards to a society, the Mill Limit can be APPLIED as a non-interference directive, with those other cultures. Applying to the first society in itself is a differnet matter and will take longer, and be harder, see my article. However, with regards to the way individuals deal with equal individuals, the way society deals with those individuals, and the way society deals with other societies, the Mill Limit applies. For example, the way societies, working under the Mill Limit here, deal with other societies, would be parralel to how I, obeying the ML, deals with another person, as opposed to how society, as an entity and a conglomeration of everybody else, deals with me.

	12-06-2003 04:44									#113
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one of the basic get out clauses to things like the mill limit is when one side starts disregarding it. "u have equal rights until u take mine away, then ur ass is grass." so I don't know why it would be moral much less prudent to protect someone disregarding the mill limit vigorously w/ the mill limit.

	12-06-2003 04:45									#114
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quote: I am asking you to tell me why you can uphold a moral like the mill limit on one level of interaction but not on another

Because the entities one is dealing with are different. Assume society (1) to be made up of constituent individuals a,b,c. Society (2) is made of constituent individuals x,y,z. How does (1) view x,y,z? It does not view them as part of its own society, for it is entirely subjective over this people, whereas it is objective (ideally) over a,b,c. Same vice versa.

However, 1 and 2 can deal with each other in the same way that a,b,c can interact, or x,y,z can interact.

I say treat, because the Mill Limit is one way, among others, that one can deal with societies. I can set the watermark anywhere, but the problem you are describing would, according to your argument, still exist, whereas I am arguing that at any level, it doesnt, thus I can use the scale, not merely a particular point on that scale.

quote: "why not" is not generally considered a valid retort

Indeed, however, it shuold be imo. It precludes the very basis for all scientific discovery, and the investigation and acquisition of human knowledge, the notion that something is possible until proven impossible.

	12-06-2003 04:49									#115
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Because the entities one is dealing with are different. Assume society (1) to be made up of constituent individuals a,b,c. Society (2) is made of constituent individuals x,y,z. How does (1) view x,y,z? It does not view them as part of its own society, for it is entirely subjective over this people, whereas it is objective (ideally) over a,b,c. Same vice versa. However, 1 and 2 can deal with each other in the same way that a,b,c can interact, or x,y,z can interact.

if u subscribed to the mill limit then abc/xyz ne other stupid letters u wna stick in should all treat each other according to it. and treatiung abc different then xyz(I don't see why u need to make it so abstract). would be a violation of the law. simply cuz u think that xyz are different is not valid justification for violating the mill limit.

	12-06-2003 04:51									#116
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quote: "u have equal rights until u take mine away, then ur ass is grass."

Althuogh I do have a way for that not to be the case, that only applies to crime and punishment, and is long winded and irrelevant here. I take a Maslow-based approach. If someone takes away one of my rights, under the Mill Limit, I have the right to take away that same right he does, plus another higher on Maslows hierarchy of needs, in order to remove his ability to deny that right, using proportionate force. For example, if he has a gun to my head, I have the right to put a gun to his (somehow) and fire, restoring my right "not to have a gun to my head" and taking away his right to do the same. This of course assumes that there is no other way to neutralise him than to kill him, but you get my idea .

quote: protect someone disregarding the mill limit vigorously w/ the mill limit

My point is that they are NOT protected from their own society, those who have had their rights taken away, but if they have not taken away the rights of the other society, then that society has no right to interfere. Like I said, the alien society has no right, due to its inherent subjectivity, over the population in a society, and as such that society in itself, which in order to modify that society, is the effect it would have, society of course being a veneer over the people.

	12-06-2003 04:54									#117
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quote: ply cuz u think that xyz are different is not valid justification for violating the mill limit

no thats the key thing!!!

Imagine a family tree like structure. You have granparents at the top, who have two sons, who marry and produce one child each. Those children are cousins. The parents have right over their child, whereas the uncle does not. Similarly, the child does not have right over its cousin, whereas, if the child had a sibling, then they would obey the Mill Limit, under the objective of that parent. How the uncle treats the parent is wholly irrelevant to how the parent or uncle treats their own respective children.

I have a love for the metaphoric, I used to be a poet .

	12-06-2003 04:55									#118
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The grandparent of course shuold be the UN!!! jk

	12-06-2003 04:56									#119
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so saddam is the father and the children are the iraqi ppl? k I get it. great idea.

	12-06-2003 04:59									#120
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quote: Originally posted by elijah My point is that they are NOT protected from their own society, those who have had their rights taken away, but if they have not taken away the rights of the other society, then that society has no right to interfere. Like I said, the alien society has no right, due to its inherent subjectivity, over the population in a society, and as such that society in itself, which in order to modify that society, is the effect it would have, society of course being a veneer over the people.

we're still arguing from two different plateaus. ur cultural relativism is just not a view I hold so I think we're firing shots that are missing both our targets because we don't believe in the same fundamental value. it happens.