14-06-2003 01:33									#121
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by GePap its BAM! man! Our hero!

You truly are foolish.. you actually think communism is better than capitalism? You are the BAM man around here..

	14-06-2003 01:36									#122
	Re: Re: Re: Question for communists . . . . Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by MrFun But as for me being gay in a heterosexist society . . . since my being gay is not a choice, I will always be gay whether I would be hypocritical or not

While I would agree with you whole heartedly, the point is, you can leave and move to gayland. There are also those who claim that homosexuality can be cured. Regardless of whether or not we believe it to be true, because the claim exists, it presents an alternative to trying to be gay in a straight society.

quote: I thought you would have to give up luxuries, but according to the points made, I thought wrong.

There are some things which are forbidden to members of communist organizations. I could not both be a member of Solidarity and own a company which employed more than five people. Neither could I beat my significant other, make creepy sexist comments to comrades, etc., take part in racist activities or even espouse such beliefs (which is why I give Uber crap, despite his being an otherwise good socialist). On the otherhand, I could be a stockbroker or a doctor or a lawyer, so long as I had fewer than five employees (as far as that particular organization is concerned).

Prince Kropotkin helped overthrow the Russian government. Engles family owned the facotry where he was a manager, Lenin was a laywer, Castro came from a ruling class family, one of the three main people who made Apple Computers was a communist (he now funds left organizations), etc.

We are communists because we want everyone to enjoy all the fruits of life. Luxeries are one of those fruits. Now, I may have my particular issues: I won't buy Nikes or anything from Taco Bell or California grapes and strawberries, etc., but those are issues of class solidarity. The various workers have asked us to boycott those goods until their bosses deal fairly with them. I refused to eat seafood for years because I felt that the industry was practicing unsustainable production, but I finally decided that since they aren't gonna stop, I'd like to have some fish and shrimp before they're all gone.

	14-06-2003 01:37									#123
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Fez

Fez, I love ya man, don't ever change. Just don't expect me to argue with you. It's like wrestling spaghetti.

	14-06-2003 01:42									#124
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Fez, I love ya man, don't ever change. Just don't expect me to argue with you. It's like wrestling spaghetti.

Nah, wrestling spaghetti is better: you feel less dirty and frustrated at the end.

I think is more like jumping against a soiled wall. That approximates the with-Fez arguing experience much better.

	14-06-2003 03:05									#125
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for communists . . . . Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by MrFun But as for me being gay in a heterosexist society . . . since my being gay is not a choice, I will always be gay whether I would be hypocritical or not While I would agree with you whole heartedly, the point is, you can leave and move to gayland. There are also those who claim that homosexuality can be cured. Regardless of whether or not we believe it to be true, because the claim exists, it presents an alternative to trying to be gay in a straight society. quote: I thought you would have to give up luxuries, but according to the points made, I thought wrong. There are some things which are forbidden to members of communist organizations. I could not both be a member of Solidarity and own a company which employed more than five people. Neither could I beat my significant other, make creepy sexist comments to comrades, etc., take part in racist activities or even espouse such beliefs (which is why I give Uber crap, despite his being an otherwise good socialist). On the otherhand, I could be a stockbroker or a doctor or a lawyer, so long as I had fewer than five employees (as far as that particular organization is concerned). Prince Kropotkin helped overthrow the Russian government. Engles family owned the facotry where he was a manager, Lenin was a laywer, Castro came from a ruling class family, one of the three main people who made Apple Computers was a communist (he now funds left organizations), etc. We are communists because we want everyone to enjoy all the fruits of life. Luxeries are one of those fruits. Now, I may have my particular issues: I won't buy Nikes or anything from Taco Bell or California grapes and strawberries, etc., but those are issues of class solidarity. The various workers have asked us to boycott those goods until their bosses deal fairly with them. I refused to eat seafood for years because I felt that the industry was practicing unsustainable production, but I finally decided that since they aren't gonna stop, I'd like to have some fish and shrimp before they're all gone.

Thanks for your good points -- makes more sense to me now.

	14-06-2003 04:03									#126
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by GePap That is what marxist speak about worker alienation.

Alienation, as it increases with productivity, is being taken to such extremes that it's resulting in unemployment and less productive employment. In the 90s we say low unemployment rates, but the long run trend is higher unemployment rates. If the trend continues we could see unemployment rates here in the US at 7 or 8% in this decade.

	14-06-2003 04:54									#127
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Fez No it isn't.

If a person refuses to even consider another point of view, they are closed minded.

You refuse to consider other points of view.

Therefore you are closed minded

	14-06-2003 05:06									#128
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Like you?

	14-06-2003 05:08									#129
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 If a person refuses to even consider another point of view, they are closed minded. You refuse to consider other points of view. Therefore you are closed minded

I do consider your own view.. but I won't adopt it as my own as it is illogical.

And are you any different than what you describe?

	14-06-2003 05:11									#130
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: I could not both be a member of Solidarity and own a company which employed more than five people.

Does that mean Engles would not be allowed to join Solidarity if he was alive today?

	14-06-2003 05:49									#131
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Alienation, as it increases with productivity, is being taken to such extremes that it's resulting in unemployment and less productive employment. In the 90s we say low unemployment rates, but the long run trend is higher unemployment rates. If the trend continues we could see unemployment rates here in the US at 7 or 8% in this decade.

Even if you postute correctly, which doesn't seem to take an economic upturn into account, then our {i]high[/i] unemployment rate will still be far lower then most of the more socialist parts of Europe.

	14-06-2003 05:59									#132
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Even if you postute correctly, which doesn't seem to take an economic upturn into account,

I'm refering to permanent employment which is not dependent on the business cycle. Producitivity improvements cut jobs permanently.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin then our {i]high[/i] unemployment rate will still be far lower then most of the more socialist parts of Europe.

Maybe so, but technological unemployment is a global problem.

	14-06-2003 07:08									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Communism is a weird one, its kind of ambiguous too, I take it to mean the disperate movements that are more libertarian than socialism. As such, I believe that soviet russia was a narrow and poor INTERPRETATION of socialism.

Communism merely means people sharing resources and cooperating as a society, as opposed to competing. It is still possible to have an entirely libertarian system within that framework, indeed it is required in any large society to have a degree of communism!!

There are already working examples, for example, the Kibbutzs' in Israel or the success of Open Source Software which develops along a communist model.

Because the soviet union, china, cuba, La Revolucion etc etc, hasnt worked, doesnt work, is against human nature, and is politically, economically and socially flawed, is no reason to tar the entire movement with the brush of not "working"!

Communism is not anti-capitalism

	14-06-2003 07:20									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Communism is anti-capitalism and is evil. It won't work ever.

quote: Communism merely means people sharing resources and cooperating as a society

And capitalism doesn't mean cooperation? And sharing of resources? Look up the facts, in both systems resources are shared. Just more efficiently in capitalism.

This is a quote by Milton Friedman:

Fundamentally, there are only two ways of coordinating the economic activities of millions. One is central direction involving the use of coercion—the technique of the army and of the modern totalitarian state. The other is voluntary cooperation of individuals—the technique of the marketplace. —Milton Friedman

The first he talks about is communism, the second is capitalism.

	14-06-2003 07:30									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Fez Fundamentally, there are only two ways of coordinating the economic activities of millions. One is central direction involving the use of coercion—the technique of the army and of the modern totalitarian state. The other is voluntary cooperation of individuals—the technique of the marketplace. —Milton Friedman The first he talks about is communism, the second is capitalism.

Have you been listening to me at all, Fezzie? You can have a free market in a communist economy as long as a company is ownned equally by it's emmployees, not by the government. You are right that a command economy doen't work but communism doesn't have to be a command economy.

BTW, Friedman sounds like he was sprouting capitalist propaganda, a true Communist society would be a democracy, not an oligarchy or dictatorship.

	14-06-2003 07:30									#136
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by elijah Because the soviet union, china, cuba, La Revolucion etc etc, hasnt worked, doesnt work, is against human nature, and is politically, economically and socially flawed, is no reason to tar the entire movement with the brush of not "working"!

* DinoDoc tries not to laugh

	14-06-2003 07:32									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Communism is anti-capitalism and is evil. It won't work ever

What did I just say?

Capitalism, for it to work, involves incorporating elements of communism. Believe it or not, lucipher is not karl marx and it is somewhat irrational to suggest otherwise like "communism is evil". Why is it evil? Why will being communist send you to hell? Why is communism "bad".

The Friedman quote is an example of communism. The example that doesnt work, and I freely admit that, is the centralised authoritarian system. Authoritarianism, and totalitarianism and militaristic societies simply dont work. That doesnt just go for Stalinist societies.

If you are talking about Stalinism, it doesnt work. Stalinism is communism, for sure. Communism is not Stalinism.

	14-06-2003 07:34									#138
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Fez Communism is anti-capitalism and is evil. It won't work ever.

Communism is not inherently evil -- how do you like those folks who call homosexual behavior evil?

See how such a fallicious, one-line, so-called argument does NOT work?

	14-06-2003 07:35									#139
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: DinoDoc tries not to laugh

DD, you're a sig machine dude!

Communism stretches far beyond my closed series of examples. See the article in my sig? How much would yuo think that corresponds to Stalinism or any of those examples? Most of it all complies with loose interpretations of communism including much of Marx and Engels, yet it would allow for a highly capitalist society, and indeed create the necessary conditions for it!

	14-06-2003 07:37									#140
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You all have your opinions, I have mine.

	14-06-2003 07:38									#141
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: It won't work ever

Go to a Kibbutz in Israel and then post that

	14-06-2003 07:39									#142
	Remove this text

quote: You all have your opinions, I have mine.

Of course, that is not in dispute. The difference is that we have backed ours up.

	14-06-2003 07:45									#143
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Bullshit, elijah.

	14-06-2003 07:47									#144
	Put an end to popups!

That was meant to be interpreted as a request to clarify and reason your position, a request that still stands, it was not meant to be provocation for abusive language -this is a family site after all.

	14-06-2003 07:48									#145
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by elijah DD, you're a sig machine dude!

I can not help it. You inspire me.

	14-06-2003 07:50									#146
	Put an end to popups!

We should have our own comedy thread! It'd be like Baddiel and Skinner Unplanned but without the chalkboard!

	14-06-2003 07:53									#147
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Fez, did I hear you say you weren't a fascist?

You threaten to throw leftists from helicopters and you have a link to the Franco appreciation society in your sig.

Definitely not a fascist.

Mother of God.....

Last edited by Agathon on 14-06-2003 at 23:27

	14-06-2003 07:57									#148
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

From the little spanish I understand, that site is really really disturbing *screams and runs crying "the forces of conservatism are preparing to strike"*

	14-06-2003 07:59									#149
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by elijah From the little spanish I understand, that site is really really disturbing *screams and runs crying "the forces of conservatism are preparing to strike"*

Bit of a laugh isn't it. I mean the guy swears that he's not a fascist but might as well attach a huge flag to his head saying "Fascist here".

I mean he even came out as a fascist on the political compass (way to the right and way more authoritarian than almost everyone on the forum).

	14-06-2003 08:06									#150
	Got spare money?

Well, I been banned for a week once, I'm not going to comment on that *polite cough*.

I do think that religious adherence to one particular point of view, particularly one that many or most would view as dangerous, is quite odd given no proof, no reasoning and little or no evidence.

I can hardly talk of course, guarenteeing at least 10% more libertarianism than anyone else, but then, I back it up!