16-06-2003 02:08									#211
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ne'er mind.

Have heart, Chegitz -- maybe the revolution will come in a thousand years.

	16-06-2003 02:09									#212
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Why, Fez? Why?!

	16-06-2003 02:13									#213
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In 1912, Lenin dispaired that the revolution wouldn't happen in his lifetime. The Bolshevik faction was around 50 members. The economy in Russia was growing and standards of living increasing. Five years later he was the leader of the world's first workers state.

Personally, I don't believe that capitalism has finished its world historic mission of destroying all previous forms of social organization and increasing productivity to the point that everyone could live a comfortable life. I think the population leveling off around the middle of this century will create a severe crisis for capitalism, and after that it will be our time.

	16-06-2003 02:15									#214
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mandatory smiley

	16-06-2003 02:16									#215
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In 1912, Lenin dispaired that the revolution wouldn't happen in his lifetime. The Bolshevik faction was around 50 members. The economy in Russia was growing and standards of living increasing. Five years later he was the leader of the world's first workers state. Personally, I don't believe that capitalism has finished its world historic mission of destroying all previous forms of social organization and increasing productivity to the point that everyone could live a comfortable life. I think the population leveling off around the middle of this century will create a severe crisis for capitalism, and after that it will be our time.

YIPPEE!!!!!

	16-06-2003 02:18									#216
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Folks, to be honest I had no clue what I was talking about in my previous post.. I was trying to sound like Alan Greenspan..

quote: I think the population leveling off around the middle of this century will create a severe crisis for capitalism,

Really? In Spain we have a leveled off population with 0.1% growth, yet we have a highly liquid capitalist economy with some of the most stable banks in the world. Viva BBVA. Down with communism.

	16-06-2003 02:18									#217
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Now, here's how the damn capitalists could screw that up. Discover a cure for old age. Then the population would continue growing. This creates a problem for me, as I want to live long enough to see the revolution.

	16-06-2003 02:19									#218
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Dont u know
that talking about the revolution
sounds
like a whisper
dont u know u better run run run run run run run ruuuuun





the justification of communists living and enjoying "capitalist" things is that for the present they live in a capitalist system. at least thats what ive heard them say

	16-06-2003 02:21									#219
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quote: Now, here's how the damn capitalists could screw that up. Discover a cure for old age. Then the population would continue growing. This creates a problem for me, as I want to live long enough to see the revolution.

I'd dump the revolution for that cure. Luckily, we don't have to make such choices.

	16-06-2003 02:22									#220
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Today's communists love capitalism.

	16-06-2003 02:23									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Folks, to be honest I had no clue what I was talking about in my previous post.

That was actually quite obvious, Fez. I did, however, manage to stifle a smart-ass comment about it, because I don't want to discourage you from trying to use your brain.

	16-06-2003 02:24									#222
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I love it, over a shitload of other primitive systems left behind, yet I think that there is room for improvement.

	16-06-2003 02:26									#223
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Why do we bother arguing with those who seek only to bait us and troll us?

	16-06-2003 02:27									#224
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That was actually quite obvious, Fez. I did, however, manage to stifle a smart-ass comment about it, because I don't want to discourage you from trying to use your brain.

Admit it Chegitz you love capitalism.

That is my smart ass comment of the day. I like being a smart ass.

I start talking like Alan Greenspan which annoys the hell out of some.. which is basically non-understandable..

	16-06-2003 02:27									#225
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence Why do we bother arguing with those who seek only to bait us and troll us?

Those on the fences and lurkers thinking about socialism.

	16-06-2003 02:29									#226
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For some reason, Jimmy Eat World's "The Middle" seems very appropriate right now.

	16-06-2003 02:34									#227
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Hey Awrence, I suggest you check out the link in my signature for the Venezuelan opposition movement. Maybe you should remove that quote of Fidel in your sig.. he is an old fart with dumb ideas.

	16-06-2003 02:49									#228
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Where does it say it won't? Where does it say that all of the middle classes will disappear? Frankly, one can infer from Marx's use of the word previous, bisherige, that there are other existing middle classes, which are not sinking into the proletariat. Otherwise, why use the word? He also doesn't write of a single middle class, but many middle classes. The point is, people counter-pose the growth of a large "middle class" to Marx's claim that the middle classes were disapearing. Marx made no claim that all middle clases were disappearing nor that new middle classes wouldn't appear. What he wrote, specifically, as that specific, previously existing, middle classes were disappearing. And they are. It's kinda like saying Marx was wrong for not predicting that the moon wasn't made of green cheese. Where did ever ever say it was?

Interesting interpretation, but don't you think that Marx predicted a collapse of capitalism due to the shrinking of the middle class.

	16-06-2003 02:50									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Interesting interpretation, but don't you think that Marx predicted a collapse of capitalism due to the shrinking of the middle class.

There is a slight problem.. the middle class was not and is not shrinking in the developed world. It has been growing consistently since the industrial revolution.

	16-06-2003 02:55									#230
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The problem isn't in the middle class. The problem is with the unskilled class or less skilled class if you will. The jobs for this class are disappearing. Training these people isn't a solution because there are limited opportinites for skilled labor. So what will happen to the jobless class of people in the future.

	16-06-2003 03:01									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The problem isn't in the middle class. The problem is with the unskilled class or less skilled class if you will. The jobs for this class are disappearing. Training these people isn't a solution because there are limited opportinites for skilled labor. So what will happen to the jobless class of people in the future.

It is sad to see people like this.. the jobs for this class are gone in Spain.. we have a base for educated people only. Sure there are some jobs like public work jobs, like driving around street cleaners.. but these jobs are terrible. Our country is European, capitalist and strong yet it has a base only for educated people. Everybody in Spain has a good education (with the exception of illegals who work in public work projects like street cleaning). We had 20% unemployment because of the lack of jobs for the educated in 1996, today we have 10% unemployment. This is because of conservative economic reforms. So the problem is insigificant and will not be abled to cause a revolution.

	16-06-2003 03:07									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Fez This is because of conservative economic reforms. So the problem is insigificant and will not be abled to cause a revolution.

Not yet, but things are getting worse. We are just beginning to feel the consequences. We'll see after this decade how people feel about it. Damn, then there is the next decade where govts are going to have so much trouble paying the bills. Che gives it till the middle of the century when demands falls off due to declining population, but what about the drop off in demand caused by the declining work force.

	16-06-2003 03:10									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Not yet, but things are getting worse.

No things are not getting worse.

quote: We are just beginning to feel the consequences. We'll see after this decade how people feel about it. Damn, then there is the next decade where govts are going to have so much trouble paying the bills.

We have managed to reduce our deficit with conservative minded reforms.

quote: Che gives it till the middle of the century when demands falls off due to declining population, but what about the drop off in demand caused by the declining work force.

The Spanish Population is already in decline.. I actually predict an ultra-nationalist backlash giving way to far-right governments and a rebirth in population growth in Europe that is. Not communist ones.

	16-06-2003 03:16									#234
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Let me clarify.. in conservative countries like Spain and Italy, ultranationalism will be on the rise. I think in more liberal countries there may be more socialist governments, though not hardline communist ones. Ultranationalism is something you must brace for being stronger than communism even you are seeing this already in many euro countries.. Would I support an ultra-nationalist movement? If i didn't have a choice, yes i would.

	16-06-2003 03:21									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Would I support an ultra-nationalist movement? If i didn't have a choice, yes i would.

Fascist. Your movement will be based on hate and will try to eliminate the jobless class. Is that what you want.

	16-06-2003 03:24									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Interesting interpretation, but don't you think that Marx predicted a collapse of capitalism due to the shrinking of the middle class.

No. Marx "predicted" the failure of capitalism because of the periodic crises of overproduction. The alternative he though we would not chose, that of barbarism. Consider how much space he devotes to the disappearance of the middle classes in his writings. There are only two lines about it in the whole of the Manifesto. Capital and his other economic writings deal with commodity production, showing how it arose, what forms it takes, and why it "necessarily" leads to a new stage of society.

	16-06-2003 03:29									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Che gives it till the middle of the century when demands falls off due to declining population, but what about the drop off in demand caused by the declining work force.

The later is the other side of the coin of the crisis of overproduction. Why is it overproduction, because there is not enough consumption. The fall in demand because of the contraction of the labor force generally preceeds a recession. This is eventually overcome once enough unproductive capital is cleared away. Boom-bust cycle in 25 cents.

The cessation of growth in the world population I see as a much more serious problem for capitalism. Perpetually falling demand must necessarily spell the end of capitalism, unless there is global war, which can clear away enough capital so there is room to grow again.

	16-06-2003 03:30									#238
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No. Marx "predicted" the failure of capitalism because of the periodic crises of overproduction.

Yes, but the crisis creates unemployment. Are you considering unemployed people middle class?

	16-06-2003 03:32									#239
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The later is the other side of the coin of the crisis of overproduction. Why is it overproduction, because there is not enough consumption. The fall in demand because of the contraction of the labor force generally preceeds a recession. This is eventually overcome once enough unproductive capital is cleared away. Boom-bust cycle in 25 cents. The cessation of growth in the world population I see as a much more serious problem for capitalism. Perpetually falling demand must necessarily spell the end of capitalism, unless there is global war, which can clear away enough capital so there is room to grow again.

I agree with your point. I just see big problems for capitalism before that time.

	16-06-2003 03:51									#240
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Those on the fences and lurkers thinking about socialism.

Who needs them! They lack conviction for any political ideal and are therefore useless.