16-06-2003 15:52									#31
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Perhaps Lego is willing to give them more than one town, or perhaps some money to start with.

OTOH, they migt have not thought about it...

	16-06-2003 16:18									#32
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Suggestion: if we want to get something for an armistice now, ask them to let us capture their 3 catapults now, promising of course that we will return them if we fail to reach an agreement (mention our code of honor, to remind them that they have reasons to believe our word).

Eli contacted me to get a few feelers on what GS would accept, and I ended up writing about half the agreement, including most of the security & reassurance clauses.
I wasn't pleased with such a long period of 18 turns for evacuation, but consider that Eli's initial demand was for 25 turns, and 18 turns is only 50% longer than the original 12 turns period that we wanted to suggest at first. But what I ended up doing was installing what might be a loophole - the scenario clause.
Now, I realize that we have some players with divine economic and planning skills here. If we can formulate a plan that would liquify Vox's population into workers and get all their cities down to 1 pop before the 18 turns is over, they will leave earlier and we will have their land and slaves from their captured cities earlier.

Engineering and Bonus Techs: I know from my discussions with Eli that Vox will absolutely not agree to giving us Engineering for free, or at least so he tells me. perhaps we should talk with Lego first, to see if they might supply us with Engineering for Vox's safe and efficient evacuation with quite a lot of pop and pikes and some immortals. As for reassurances that we will not be embargoed on the bonus techs, IMHO that should be discussed in our next chat with Lego as well.

1 city and over 20 units: they are mostly concerned with Barbarians, and they want to expand quickly by turning their workers that will join their one city into settlers. They won't have time to produce pikes to guard their settlers, their new cities and the workers that will be working their new lands if they want to expand quickly.

	16-06-2003 16:36									#33
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NEWSFLASH
Beta did not receive any instructions from us in time to play Vox's turn (thanks guys... ), so he just began a withdrawal of units. He also left Vox's catapults open, but we are asked not to touch them unless we accept the proposed agreement (I suggest not touching them at all until Vox is presented with our reservations for the draft and the agreement is ratified, with or without the changes that we'll propose).
I'm going to personally apologize to Beta for not seeing that a message is sent to him in time, explaining that I was asleep and had to get up early and rush out.

	16-06-2003 16:37									#34
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Oh, and Beta also sent another accepted peace proposal with D'Ville on the table, but that was a mistake. We're requested to reject this in-game proposal because they need to evacuate D'Ville first.

	16-06-2003 16:46									#35
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quote: Hi Beta, I would like to personally apologize for not seeing that a message regarding the proposed one-turn armistice was sent to you in time. I did request my teammates to take care of it during my sleep... I don't know what happened yet (perhaps I didn't make myself clear, or perhaps nobody noticed the time, I have yet to find out), I just got back home and the first thing I'm doing after Eli told me that you did not receive an answer is writing this message to you. I myself was unable to ensure that the message is sent because I had to go to sleep and get up early in the morning and rush out of the house (had a crazy morning schedule), and I think that we both agree that RL always comes first. But I do apologize for this mishap. We've begun discussing Vox's proposed peace treaty, but I cannot say anything about that since I am not an official ambassador or other official representative of GS, and I don't want to step on any toes. Best luck to us both, Shiber.

	16-06-2003 17:13									#36
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A few things: No Engineering isn't that bad. We really don't need it if we get Theology first. It also might be good, as then we have a definitive reason to go for Education while Lego goes for Invention if we start coordinating techs... It also gives us a chance to better our trade relations with ND. Let's not jump the gun anymore and make offers/feelers about things we don't have (ND!) and/or haven't confirmed. Leave tech whoring to GoW.

Cats: We don't want them if we're getting a peace treaty, until after the peace is signed. Otherwise we're paying more gold for upkeep. Free cats are good, free cats we don't have to support for a few more turns are better.

Barbs: A Pike per Settler should be more than enough against Regent/Chieftain Barbs. Throw in a few Immortals and that's all they should take in any case. Not really important for GS, but for Vox it can mean a difference of a couple hundred gold in the coming 20 turns. The rest of the units should be disbanded for shields.

Evacuation: I'm certain we can come up with a plan for a ~10 turn evacuation that will put Vox in a better position than what they've proposed (Engineering could be a hangup, although they seem on pace for a 40 turn tech so it probably won't matter). They should be building Settlers here to teleport to their new home, as they actually have production here. They could have 6-7 cities in 15 turns, paying no upkeep. In 20 turns from that point, it's probably a difference of ~500g and ~10 pop points for them to do it 'backwards' from what they've proposed.

	16-06-2003 17:28									#37
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How do you suggest that Vox would teleport settlers to Lego Land?
Once they have a city in place on LL, they can teleport workers as slaves sold to Lego, but can settlers be sold too, as two workers?
Of course, they could put their workers inside a city and then gift the city to us, but that will only teleport them to The Voice, and I'm not sure how we can set Vox's new capital as their new home town in LL without conquering all of their cities on this continent.

	16-06-2003 17:42									#38
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Easy. They build everything they need first.

Turn 1, Vox:

Vox gives us all the cities but The Voice. They park their units outside Miller Town (before or after gifting it to us), and disband The Voice. Now their Palace will be in the city on Lego's continent as it's their only city left.

Turn 1, GS:

We gift Miller Town back to Vox.

Turn 2, Vox:

They move the units into Miller Town, and gift it back to us.

Turn 2, GS:

We accept the city offer. Vox's units are all teleported back to their capitol on Lego's landmass.

Turn 3, Vox:

All their units are now available to do whatever with.

-------------

Sure beats the galley ride option.

	16-06-2003 17:44									#39
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I think I found a way to make a teleport work. If Vox would abandon their capital or let us take it at a time when their city on the other continent is significantly bigger from added workers, that would move their capital there. They could then pile their units in another city and give the city to us. Instant teleport. Right? Or am I missing something?

Edit: Crossposted with Aeson's having the same idea.

	16-06-2003 17:44									#40
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Is it necessary to do it that way? Couldn't they just give away all towns except The Voice, put all their units there, and give it away. Then their Lego-town becomes their new capital, and all their units get transported there. Or do they lose the units if they try and do it like that?

	16-06-2003 17:46									#41
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You can't give away your capital.

	16-06-2003 17:52									#42
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We could cut down a turn if we got the Palace jump down.. but it would be difficult/dangerous, and cost Lego another Settler and/or a few Workers probably.

There are a couple main factors in where the Palace will jump, population of cities, and surrounding cities (as DaveMcW pointed out). Just which cities count isn't quite clear, and I don't think anyone's come up with a definitive answer yet as to the relation of pop to # cities. I'd think we'd need to make sure Vox's new city is size 6, and has another city next to it to be sure. The city they keep here would need to be at pop 1. A size 3 'Lego' city would probably work on it's own if the other city was at size 1, but it's not something I'd ask any team to risk. (and it's a risk to us too, as if it doesn't work, we have to wait even longer to try again)

	16-06-2003 17:53									#43
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Nationality a factor?

	16-06-2003 17:57									#44
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Might be. Like I said, I don't think there is a definitive answer out there yet. I generally go with 'the only size 3+ city' rule, but I'm sure there are cases where it won't work either. The risk isn't worth the gains IMO.

	16-06-2003 18:25									#45
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I think Aeson's method is the easiest.

Shall we propose it to them?

-Arrian

	16-06-2003 18:26									#46
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Oh, and are we still gonna get nationalism for free?

-Arrian

	16-06-2003 18:33									#47
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quote: Oh, and are we still gonna get nationalism for free?

We weren't asking for it- just that we won't be denied of a fair trade when buying the tech.

As for Engineering and Theology- I still believe we should be compensated with at least one of these techs (preferably Theology)- If not for free, than at least with a nice discount...

I believe we should propose Vox our idea for teleportation, as it would save us and them alot of time.

	16-06-2003 18:52									#48
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Engineering is what they're working on, so let's get that. We can research Theology ourselves.

I'd like to work out a discounted deal for whatever their free industrial tech is (may not be nationalism, particularly if we upgrade to 1.21). Something like we will pay them a discounted percentage of the value of the tech (in beakers) via GPT, while we promise not to sell it on - they get to broker it. The question is... what is a reasonable discount?

-Arrian

	16-06-2003 19:27									#49
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My thoughts on this (and I do not know if it's "too late" to make a difference.

Beta is the single biggest threat to this team at the moment. Beta's PR skills.

If you let him live, that will remain unchanged, and we will have more trouble from them down the line, I promise you that.

-=Vel=-

	16-06-2003 19:32									#50
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Even better, end the Voxians and co-opt Beta to our team as a "surviving voice" We could sorely use his talents, but in either case, my vote would be to crush the life out of the team.

-=Vel=-

	16-06-2003 19:32									#51
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To get Theology for free was a part of the deal with Lego, IIRC.

	16-06-2003 19:51									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Engineering is what they're working on, so let's get that. We can research Theology ourselves.

But Theology is more expensive (Theo: 40, Eng: 36).

	16-06-2003 19:53									#53
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Lego is offering Theology to us for free if we accept peace with Vox. So no need to research it unless we don't plan on peace with Vox.

	16-06-2003 20:07									#54
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Oh, ok... I guess I'm somewhat confused by what tech is going to whom.

Engineering - ?
Theology - to us from Lego. Right, got that now.

Vel,

I hear you re: Beta. I know. Thing is, if we destroy Vox, Beta will almost assuredly get gobbled up by another team. Better to leave him with a seriously weakened Vox that is on the other side of the world, than to have him join a strong team.

-Arrian

	16-06-2003 20:08									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber 1 city and over 20 units: they are mostly concerned with Barbarians, and they want to expand quickly by turning their workers that will join their one city into settlers. They won't have time to produce pikes to guard their settlers, their new cities and the workers that will be working their new lands if they want to expand quickly.

We could offer them to escort their Voxodus with 2-3 galleys with pikes and medinfs, which then would be used to hunt barbarians, until Vox can do it themselves (and, of course, to spy a bit in Legoland). Lego would have to agree. Even though this is not very likely, it's worth a try, since Lego stated, that they have problems with barbarians. That implies, that they barely can protect themselves.

	16-06-2003 20:10									#56
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Re: Beta. I think he has learned his lesson and understood by now, that he was the main obstacle for peace all the time. I doubt that he will anger us by purpose ever again. Besides, if he does, we still can silence the voice.

	16-06-2003 20:12									#57
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IMO, it's more dangerous this way. A weak Vox can grow to become a strong junior partner.

As dangerous as Beta is, do we really want him coaxing a strong Civ into launching a full on war, AND facing a revived Vox later? Almost as sure as I live and breathe, that will be the long term consequences of letting Vox go.

At least if the worst happens, we crush Vox like a beer can and Beta goes to another team....at least then we're still facing one less civ.

-=Vel=-

	16-06-2003 20:16									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph We could offer them to escort their Voxodus with 2-3 galleys with pikes and medinfs, which then would be used to hunt barbarians, until Vox can do it themselves (and, of course, to spy a bit in Legoland).

IMHO this won't work.
The real reason why Vox wants these units is because they want to salvage as much of their army as possible, to save them from rebuilding it later.
Wouldn't you?

quote: Even though this is not very likely, it's worth a try, since Lego stated, that they have problems with barbarians. That implies, that they barely can protect themselves.

Interesting that you mention these recurring statements from Lego...
I've come to believe that they can deal with the barbarians fine on their own, they just want other teams to think that barbarians are actually a burden to Lego and forget that most of Lego's units must be elites by now and that they get lots of gold bonuses by destroying barb camps.

	16-06-2003 20:23									#59
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I'm with Shiber on the Lego situation. They are playing up the barbs to make it sound like they are struggling, when as we all know, barbs on Chieftain are less than a nuisance. It is very hard to lose units to them, and they are a great source of income and training. There is a chance that they didn't have enough military early on, and lost some terrain improvements and workers to bard activity, especially once the barbs got horses, but I really, really suspect it is a resource rather than a problem for them by now.

	16-06-2003 20:30									#60
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quote: The real reason why Vox wants these units is because they want to salvage as much of their army as possible, to save them from rebuilding it later. Wouldn't you?

No, I wouldn't. If any civ decides to take them out right now, it's not going to help them to have a few more Pikes to die. Their army isn't helping them all that much against us right now...

It's going to hurt Vox in the long run to keep their army. It's going to slow down their exodus, and thus they start rebuilding later, and all the while having to pay way too much in support costs. Think of it like wandering around with your Settler at the start of the game, getting warriors from huts so that your first city is better protected.