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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:28
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OK. This is what I can come up with after reviewing the thread and throwing in some legalese that may throw even Togas off of trying to find a loophole. These are additions and modifications to Eli's points.
Modifications and additions to Vox's initial points:
4. Vox will not allow any landings of forces other than GS on it's territory during the evacuation period. Any forces already there will be asked to leave.
8) GS War Chariots and other mounted units will patrol Voxian territory during the evacuation.
8b) Vox will grant GS a ROP immediately upon peace being settled. Vox and GS will agree to a series of tiles that Vox will never occupy which allows GS to patrol Voxian territory unimpeded and that will not interfere with Voxian production of workers and settlers. Certain Voxian roads as specified by GS will be kept clear at all times. Completely changed/added to.
Additions required by GS:
9. Vox will not pop rush in any city without specific approcal by GS. GS may withhold approval at their discretion, and is not inclined to grant it in any case.
10. Vox gives Engineering to GS at no cost as soon as they have that technology.
11. Vox gives Nationalism to GS at no cost as soon as they have that technology. If Vox does not gain Nationalism as a free tech upon reaching the Industrial era, GS will receive either Nationalism when Vox aquires it or Voxes free tech in the Industrial era at GS's sole discretion and as soon as said tech determined by GS is gained by Vox.
12. Vox will at no time now or in the future initiate or participate in any embargo against GS in any matters of trade whatsoever. This includes, but is not limited to, Technology, Luxuries, Resources, Maps, or any other material or immaterial elements of the PTW DG.
13. If any GS city flips to Vox, Vox will either reject the city when asked if they accept it (not sure if that happens in PBEM) or immediately gift the city back to GS with improvements intact.
14. Vox will not disband any cities. All cities will be gifted to GS when at 1 pop, or at 10 turns hense, no matter their situation, unless ordered otherwise by GS, and in accordance with the transport provisions to be worked out.
15. No non-cultural improvements of any Vox cities will be sold off by Vox at any time prior to the cities transfer to GS.
16. Vox gifts it's world map to GS at a time of GS's choosing. There will be no negotiation on that timing.
17. Vox will disband all forces in excess of 12 pike and 4 immortals, in addition to an unlimited number of gallies, workers and settlers, when and as GS directs. GS will allow forces in excess of these numbers to return to Vox cities to serve as disbandment fodder to hurry production where and as GS sees fit.
18. The transport clause. To be finalised.
19. Vox will garrison it's cities only as allowed and directed by GS. No forces will occupy any Vox city that are not specifically allowed by GS and for only so long as allowed by GS. In general, GS will allow garrisons of size and type to maintain order in cities, but no more, and may withhold permission, or order complete military evacuation at the sole discretion of GS. Vox will maintain it's forces outside of cities at points designated by GS at the sole discretion of GS. This provision will only apply to cities which have historically belonged to Vox; it does not apply to new Vox cites in other lands.
20. Except as provided for within, there will be no negotiation of these terms after they are agreed to. Vox controli will maintain these terms to the sole satisfaction of GS.
21. All terms of this treaty and breaches of them are subject to the sole judgement of GS, and GS may judge those terms upheld or in breach as GS sees fit solely at the discretion of GS. Should any term be in breach, GS may declare that a right and just state of war will exist between GS and Vox Controli. Such a state of war will commence at GS's sole discrestion.
Edited for points and grammar (although grammar could still be improved, no doubt).
Last edited by notyoueither on 17-06-2003 at 13:06
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:28
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I've incorporated most of NYE's points but tried to take a much more reasonable and conciliatory tone. I'd like to give this kind of tone a chance before we try a more demanding, "take it or else," type of tone.
quote:
Greetings People of Vox Controli,
It is with mixed feelings that I look upon this day. I am happy that there is hope for a speedy end to this war, but, but saddened that the kind of close relationship that once seemed to make sharing our small continent practical no longer exists.
Since receiving Eli's proposal, several of us in Gathering Storm have taken an active interest in how best to conduct Vox's evacuation. Our goals are not only to make the evacuation rapid, but also to help you regain prosperity as quickly as practical. In particular, one idea that occurred to us is that a combinaiton of a free palace jump to the other continent and a city-gift teleport (putting your units in a city, giving the city to us, and having the units automatically go to your new capital) could get all of your forces provided for under the treaty away without a need to build additional galleys. More importantly, it could make it practical to build settlers in your current core and use them to set up additional cities in your new core quickly. (That could be especially important in avoiding financial disaster from upkeep costs with how many units you want to keep - especially since workers also count as units.) And eliminating the need for additional galleys should speed up the process as well.
Regarding Eli's peace proposal, we would like to see it revised as follows:
1. Vox will have up to 18 turns, or until workers and settlers equaling its current population (with settlers counting as two pop points), whichever comes first, to evacuate. During that time, only workers and settlers will be produced unless Gathering Storm grants an exception for some special purpose. (This addresses both your fear of not having time to get enough out and our belief that it should be possible.)
3. When leaving, Vox promises not to raze any of it's worked tiles or remaining cities. (This includes abandoning cities by building settlers without GS's consent.) Vox also agrees not to sell any city improvements other than barracks and cultural improvements. (We don't want to spend huge amounts of gold or shields replacing improvements you can get just a handful of pocket change for selling.)
4. Vox will not allow any landings of forces other than GS on it's territory during the evacuation period. Any such forces already there will be asked to leave. (The original version referred to "hostile" forces, leaving an at least theoretically interesting loophole regarding forces claiming not to be hostile.)
8. Up to 2 GS War Chariots may patrol Voxian territory during the evacuation. GS and Vox will attempt to minimize interference between GS's patrols and Vox's unit movements. Aside from warriors needed as MPs to address happiness problems, Vox will keep its units outside its cities to avoid ambiguities in verifying numbers and types of troops. (Verification would be worthless in a city showing a veteran pike and not worth much more in a city showing a veteran spear or veteran or elite immortal. Also, concern about freedom of movement runs in both directions.)
And some additional provisions:
11. Vox will not use pop rushing in any city without GS's approval. (Assuming you want to evacuate as much population as possible, pop rushing will not be in your best interest anyhow, and we prefer not to inherit unhappiness from additional pop rushing.)
12. Vox will give Gathering Storm Engineering when research on that is completed. (Were it not for your attack on us and all the gold we had to spend rushing troops to defend ourselves in the early stages, we would almost certainly have researched it ourselves long ago. We would therefore consider it grossly unfair for you to try to charge us for it, nor would your simply refusing to provide it to us at all remedy the problem. Receiving Engineering from you would also help make up for the huge loss we took on Feudalism, a loss which we believe to have been caused in part by other civs' reluctance to make deals that would provide us with gold to fight you with. We therefore regard getting Engineering from you as a matter of simple justice.)
13. If applicable, Vox will sell or trade its free industrial and modern techs to Gathering Storm on terms at least as favorable as those on which it provides them to any other nation. This includes giving Gathering Storm an equal opportunity to pay with techs or other commodities rather than gold. Commitments required in return for land in your new home will not count in this regard, however. (This protects against your making excessive demands for thoe techs as a way to exact revenge, just in case you might consider such a thing, while providing you with reasonable compensation. It is my hope, however, that our teams will be on good enough terms to make this provision mostly superfluous.)
14. Vox will at no time now or in the future initiate, participate in, or encourage any embargo against GS in any matters of trade whatsoever. This includes, but is not limited to, Technology, Luxuries, Resources, Maps, or any other material or immaterial elements of the PTWDG. It applies both to formal embargos and informal arrangements or understandings that would tend to have a similar effect. (Again, I hope we're just being paranoid.)
15. If any former Voxian city transferred to GS attempts to flip back to Vox, Vox will reject the city when asked. Should a mistake be made in handling that, or if some quirk of MP prevents you from having an opportunity to reject the flip, Vox will immediately gift the city back to GS. (The purpose of this one is obvious.  )
16. The city of Dissidentville will be an exception to the 18-turn evacuation period. Vox will either hand over or abandon Dissidentville (in the latter case, probably by disbanding with a settler sped up by disbanding units), at GS's choice, within the next seven turns. Should this provision undercut Vox's ability to evacuate population equivalent to its current population within 18 turns, GS will grant a suitable extension to compensate. (Dissidentville adds very little to your production capacity, and it's close enough to our core that we'd rather get a city there going sooner.)
17. It is understood by both sides that the spirit of this agreement that is important, not just its letter. Neither side will attempt to use technicalities to take unfair advantage of the other or to circumvent the intent of the agreement. (Self-evident, I hope.)
---
We think these modifications are reasonable and, aside from your reluctance to give us Engineering, not outside the spirit of Eli's proposal. Indeed, it is our hope that we can help you build a stronger core more quickly in your new home than you had expected to manage. We also hope that diplomatic and trade relations between our civs can be normalized once close proximity on a too-small land mass is no longer a source of contention. Perhaps absence can, as the saying goes, make the heart grow fonder.
Sincerely,
The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist |
Last edited by nbarclay on 17-06-2003 at 18:07
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
The section regarding embargos is not restricted to just the free techs, but it leaves Vox free to negotiate better deals for other teams than for us if they so desire. The section regarding the free techs does assure us a good deal on those particular techs (at least to the extent that Vox gives anyone but their new hosts a good deal), but does not impose any conditions regarding deals on anything but those techs. So while there is perhaps some overlap, each provision has its own distinct purpose. |
Isn't that a bit too much to ask?
Eli said that he doesn't want to make game-long commitments. While they don't have any plans to embargo us at the moment, he says, he won't sign any treaty that would completely shut off this possibility. He said that we wouldn't sign a treaty that would include a game-long commitment not to attack RP, even though we may not have any plans for such actions in the present.
We already have a clause that prevents them from embargoing us with their bonus techs. I seriously doubt that Vox will ever be the first researcher of any other tech.
quote:
Regarding the timing of the sale or trade of Vox's bonus techs, I would argue that allowing other teams to purchase a tech significantly earlier than we are allowed to would be a clear violation of "terms at least as favorable." After all, when the tech is supplied is one of the terms of the deal. |
Still, it's a lacunal wording that allows room for maneuvering and personal interpretation. I recommend that we use Octavian X's wording or something by that line.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
Eli said that he doesn't want to make game-long commitments. While they don't have any plans to embargo us at the moment, he says, he won't sign any treaty that would completely shut off this possibility. He said that we wouldn't sign a treaty that would include a game-long commitment not to attack RP, even though we may not have any plans for such actions in the present. |
Do I sense typical Voxian behavior again? I thought they'd have learned their lesson.
The matter of embargoing the free tech or not is crucial and can screw us seriously. While it seemingly may set us back only a few turns, these turns may be the make or break in the race for ToE, or (if the free tech is Nationalism, which is not sure once the game is upgraded) makes us vulnerable to attacks while we don't have this advance, but others do.
I wouldn't give a damn what Vox says on this point. My trust in them is zero and won't raise again for the whole game. I want a Lego guarantee, as it was mentioned in the chat initiating the peace negotiations. It was the condition for me agreeing to Lego's desire for peace, vondrack said, that this wouldn't be a problem, and unless this condition is met, I won't ratify any peace between us and Vox.
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17-06-2003 12:38
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