18-06-2003 14:47									#121
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Eli objected to making a game-long commitment to embargoing us as a whole, not just with regard to the bonus techs. The current draft prohibits Vox from embargoing us with the bonus techs, and Eli hasn't objected to that (which either means that they won't embargo us on their bonus techs, or that they will, thus violating the treaty, and then any additional clauses that we cram into it won't make any difference), only to article #14, but not to #13.
I doubt that Vox will ever be able to embargo us with any techs other than their bonus ones. I don't see them being first researchers of anything.
Still, I definitely agree that we should get guarantees from Lego. We should have another chat with the blockheads to discuss what guarantees they have to offer.

I'll rush Eli to send an official reply to our draft so that we'll have something concrete to discuss about, not just some (possibly unofficial) comments made by this or that member of this or that team.

	18-06-2003 14:53									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Do I sense typical Voxian behavior again? I thought they'd have learned their lesson. The matter of embargoing the free tech or not is crucial and can screw us seriously. While it seemingly may set us back only a few turns, these turns may be the make or break in the race for ToE, or (if the free tech is Nationalism, which is not sure once the game is upgraded) makes us vulnerable to attacks while we don't have this advance, but others do. I wouldn't give a damn what Vox says on this point. My trust in them is zero and won't raise again for the whole game. I want a Lego guarantee, as it was mentioned in the chat initiating the peace negotiations. It was the condition for me agreeing to Lego's desire for peace, vondrack said, that this wouldn't be a problem, and unless this condition is met, I won't ratify any peace between us and Vox.

This is true. Vox wishes to gain much by peace. They should not be too finicky lest the destruction recommence.

Also, we do really need to meet up with Lego and firm up that agreement. It is a prerequisite for peace with Vox.

	18-06-2003 15:04									#123
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I question the validity of Eli's analogy. On one hand, it is valid in terms of arguing that Vox would not want to make a game-long commitment. But on the other, would we consider such a condition from RP unreasonable if we attacked them and were getting clobbered?

On the other hand, I view Eli's expressing concern about the condition as a good sign. If Vox were out to get us without regard to honesty or honor, they would probably go along with that condition until the time is right to ignore it. That angle makes me a little more willing to live without the more general embargo provision. The more we push, the harder it will be to get Vox to cooperate willingly in the future, so we need to balance our desire to protect ourselves against our desire not to have Vox wanting to work against us.

What do others think?

Sir Ralph, my impression is that it is the general embargo provision, not the provision regarding sale or trade of the free techs on relatively favorable terms, that Vox is objecting to.

	18-06-2003 15:06									#124
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I don't really care too much about any Voxian concessions in the future. If they say they won't embargo us, they probably will at some point anyways, so we shouldn't make too much of it this point. If we can get Theology and Engineering for free right now, along with their territory, that's all I'd expect to get, regardless of what Vox promises.

If we as a team feel we aren't getting enough value up front to allow Vox to survive (in a meaningful, non-OCC-cityhopping fashion), we shouldn't make the deal. Trusting Vox is beyond naive at this point.

	18-06-2003 15:15									#125
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My view of Vox is that they're opportunistic and pragmatic, not outright evil. If they think it's in their best interest to honor a deal with us (if only to avoid having us scream about yet another Voxian betrayal), they will. If they think their interests are served better by breaking an agreement, there's every chance they might. But I'm not seeing signs that their attitude is, "Agree to what GS wants; we can always doublecross them later."

	18-06-2003 15:24									#126
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay My view of Vox is that they're opportunistic and pragmatic, not outright evil. If they think it's in their best interest to honor a deal with us (if only to avoid having us scream about yet another Voxian betrayal), they will. If they think their interests are served better by breaking an agreement, there's every chance they might. But I'm not seeing signs that their attitude is, "Agree to what GS wants; we can always doublecross them later."

That's why I want this part of the deal with Lego.

	18-06-2003 15:52									#127
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I don't think they are worried we would rant and rave about it, it seems to be something they've tried to get us to do on occasion.

I agree they will do what is in their best interest, and it's probably going to be something along the lines of Lego saying "Hey, if you delay your free tech to GS, we can beat them to Hoover. Here is a gift from us in return." Lego has the inside track on Vox in the 'best interest' department for the rest of the game, and we are dead last. At least once peace is signed (though they don't seem to realize we are the ones who their 'existance' depends on at this point).

"Vox is defeated" isn't compatible with them making demands of any sort, yet they do. I see a team that has several heads operating somewhat independantly of each other. A guarantee from one head means little to nothing from the others.

That's why I say the it's only the up-front concessions that we should consider when valuating this agreement. Not that Vox is out to break agreements, but that Vox is not out to honor agreements.

	18-06-2003 16:16									#128
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A Lego guarantee of trading us the bonus tech is the way to go. To demand a "no-embargo" clause is ridiculous, as it won't be possible to seriously enforce. But getting Vox fight on that, allows us to push the other issues easily- Engineering for cheap or nothing, Theology (with Lego).

I don't care if Lego promises us they sell us the tech, and arrange that with Vox. Once Vox are in their hands, Lego could get them to agree on anything, they'll really be able to hold them by their throats...

	18-06-2003 18:13									#129
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Damn... yesterday I wanted to post that, before sending, a clause on the WM had to be added (it seems that got lost), but I couldn't get it

Oh well, perhaps we can negotiate that further on... as kind of a normal thing to do. We could e.g. trade it to our WM, after we have sold our WM to everyone else. (but still, it would be good to discuss this with Vox before they are off our continent)

DeepO

	18-06-2003 18:30									#130
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Btw, will we be able to see Vox's new capital on Lego Land? (since we have an embassy with them)

	18-06-2003 18:42									#131
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Yes we will, but of course not the city view.

As to the long term parts of this deal: we can simply state that by embargoing us, they declare war to us again. I doubt that, even if they get to half our size, they'll think lightly on this cause.

I do agree on one thing: they are at our mercy, so they are in no position to make demands. Already, we're doing a lot more then strictly needed, so let them realize that...

DeepO