15-06-2003 22:18									#1
	Vox defeated? Tired of ads?

But what does it mean?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=89335

	15-06-2003 22:23									#2
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I don;t exactly know... I suspect they are not of a will to survive as vassals.

Abandon all cities? Gift them to other teams?

	15-06-2003 23:30									#3
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Didn't want to say it in public, but if this is another set-up, I'm out.

I'm willing to give Beta(and the rest) the benefit of the doubt, to forget, move on and have some fun again.

But atm I'm still, uhm, cautious

PS: I wouldn't consider abondoning every city and such as 'foul-play' of course.

	15-06-2003 23:56									#4
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I agree, alva... I wanted to congrat Beta (and give some other note then 'thanks for your apology'), but this might be the last stunt he pulls. They could e.g. consider razing all their cities next turn, to keep them from our hands. Personally, I don't mind that much, I'd rather see them go completely then to live on in a Lego reservation.

I will somewhat miss Beta's public announcements though, he was a genius in it, and kept us constantly at the tip of our toes. Even if it damaged us most likely more then having to spend our GA on a war that gained us little, I respect it.

DeepO

	16-06-2003 00:55									#5
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Eli sent a Voxodus proposal to NYE and Nathan.
They still need to play their turn in ~12 hours and they're not sure what to do. I suggested that they withdraw their units and leave a 1-tile space between our units and theirs, but he said that in the case that the agreement will not be authorized, it will disadvantage Vox considerably in the battlefield (which was one of our reasons for not agreeing to a similar withdrawal on our part, so I can accept this).
He suggested that they will hold all of their units in place (just go over all of the units and hit space), but he wants reassurances that we will not attack them this turn. This will be a sort of a 1-turn armistice, only that unlike before, it's not going to seriously disadvantage us (I reckon that in one turn we can pull into the front a lot more reinforcements than Vox can), so let's agree to it, shall we?
For the sake of a Voxodus.

	16-06-2003 01:02									#6
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Aha...

don't know about that. We should start a poll on a possible Voxodus, personally I feel too much offended for it, although perhaps we should use it as a public stunt to get better relations. I guess I would abstain, seeing as my opinion goes both ways

No matter what the exact terms will be, if we don't gain enough from it, we should proceed with the war. All the pop we let them escape with is pop we don't gain ourselves. Plus it will deny us the possibility of gaining a leader to do a better FP positioning (I agree on Arashi being about the best choice of building it peacefully, but in Vox's core would be better efficiency wise)

DeepO

	16-06-2003 01:40									#7
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Damn, I have to go now (RL).
Please send Beta a notification regarding this. It's very important; even if it's a no, they need to know.
And please make it a yes, or else what would happen if they take over Inchon this turn? Either we'll have to make concessions to get it back, or they will keep it during the period of evacuation and use it to build galleys or something while we could have been producing gold and building a courthouse.
Of course if it is technically impossible for Vox to take Inchon this turn (in case we have more defenders than they have immortals) then the above argument doesn't matter much.

Last edited by Shiber on 16-06-2003 at 01:45

	16-06-2003 01:57									#8
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They quite possibly could take it, I think, but it would cost them dearly. Vox will not attack this turn, as they have said, otherwise they shoot themselves in the foot, by offering an armistice and breaking it at the same time...

I would yes to a Voxodus now- I think that in terms of in-game considerations, its 50-50, but this will be very beneficial, I believe, on the diplomatic front...

	16-06-2003 01:59									#9
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As far as I know, the agreement contains Voxes departure to Legoland Minor, us getting Engineering and Theology (from Lego, but without right to build the Sistine) and a guarantee by Lego, that we won't be denied the free era techs of Vox (we still have to pay a reasonable price, but that's ok). It has practically the benefit, that we can stop fighting right now and full power get back to building, without needing to conquer Vox. We will get handed these territories on Voxes departure. A timetable shall be negotiated.

	16-06-2003 02:03									#10
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Where was the exact proposal logged?

	16-06-2003 02:19									#11
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The proposals from Vox (logged in their thread).

1) Vox will have 18 turns to fully evacuate in the most efficient way.
Short extensions are possible and negotiable, depending on the circumstances, and granted that they are presented at least three turns prior to the expiration point of the truce.

2) When the designated term of evacuation is over, Vox will hand over all of their towns that are left on Estonia to GS. However, if Vox is incapable of loading all of its units on galleys by that time, they may leave units in one tile which will be agreed upon with GS until their galleys return for additional trips, granted that the immortals leave on the first trip.

3) When leaving, Vox promises not to raze any of it's worked tiles or remaining cities.

4) Vox will not allow any landings of forces hostile to GS on it's territory during the evacuation period. Any forces already there will be asked to leave.

5) Vox units will have free passage from S. Estonia to N. Estonia, in order to be disbanded in the cities for faster production.

6) Vox will disband all it's military units, as described in point 5, except :
a) 12 defensive units - Pikemen or Spearmen.
b) 4 offensive units - Immortals or Warriors.

7) 3 Voxian Catapults will pass to GS.

8) 2 GS War Chariots will patrol Voxian territory during the evacuation. The War Chariots routes will cause minimal disturbance to Vox's evacuation effort.

9) Should Vox request GS's aid in the logistical aspect of the evacuation, such aid will be available.
If that happens, Vox agrees to provide every detail that is required to create a scenario that is an exact duplication of North Estonia (fully identical, up to the amount of food and shields stored in each city). GS will help Vox come up with a turn-by-turn plan for the most effective and efficient evacuation possible. Should GS come up with a plan to liquify the population of North Estonia up to the point where each remaining city of Vox Controli is down to 1 population point or has been abandoned with a settler before Vox's designated evacuation period is over, Vox will follow that plan and evacuate North Estonia as soon as that plan is completely carried out (that is, sooner than the amount of turns initially agreed upon).

10) The method of evacuation :
Vox's population will be transformed into workers. Vox will arrange to be given a town on another continent by a team of their choice, and will then gift their workers to that team, which, according to agreement with Vox, will return these workers to Vox's control. Therefore, galleys will only be necessary for the transportation of military units and there will be need for less galleys for Vox to evacuate themselves than if they evacuated their population via galleys as well.

	16-06-2003 02:28									#12
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What about Engineering, and the free Industrial tech- or is this to be arranged by Lego?

	16-06-2003 02:32									#13
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We may add our own points and negotiate, zeit.

	16-06-2003 02:40									#14
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Don't forget to mention culture flips.

If for example Elipolis flips it is to be refused so the city returns under GS's control.
-

quote: 4) Vox will not allow any landings of forces hostile to GS on it's territory during the evacuation period. Any forces already there will be asked to leave.

What if we do get invaded? Will vox be obligated to fight on our side?

	16-06-2003 02:42									#15
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4) Vox will not allow any landings of forces hostile to GS on it's territory during the evacuation period. Any forces already there will be asked to leave.

Needs to read landings of forces other than GS on it's territory...


8) 2 GS War Chariots will patrol Voxian territory during the evacuation. The War Chariots routes will cause minimal disturbance to Vox's evacuation effort.

Is two enough? Should be WarChariots/Horsemen. Can we designate certain tiles that are ours to move in as we wish? Perhaps an ROP would assist in the verification phase.


Point 9. Anyone have time for this? Do we allow them pop rushing? Can unhappiness effects jump from a Vox city to a GS city when a rushed city disbands? This last question is very important for us especially with D'ville.

	16-06-2003 02:42									#16
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Can we ask them to switch to monarchy/rep? If they are going to keep rushing, the cities will be worthless for the duration of the game.
-
Damn, NYE, I have a very hard time reconising your posts

	16-06-2003 02:43									#17
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All the points they mention are acceptable to me, provided one of us has time to work through a scenario for them.

I just hope we can trust them this time ....

	16-06-2003 03:03									#18
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I support this actually.

It might bite us in the end, but We must accept an exodus plan as if we do not the fall out would be honor besmirching...

Mss

	16-06-2003 03:10									#19
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quote: Can unhappiness effects jump from a Vox city to a GS city when a rushed city disbands?

I think it does, hence my asking if they would be willing to go a different kind goverment.

	16-06-2003 03:31									#20
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Our points

Vox gives us Engineering at no cost to us as soon as they have that tech. Should we ask for more?

How can Vox assure us that they will not embargo their free techs vs just us in future?

Gold. Do we demand any?

Flipping. If any GS city flips to Vox, Vox will either reject the city when asked if they accept it (not sure if that happens in PBEM) or immediately gift the city back to GS with improvements intact.

Others?

The deal with Lego would be a seperate deal. That happens before this happens. That is a lot easier to get done than this.

	16-06-2003 03:32									#21
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Well... I am not an active supporter of letting them live, but if we do so, we should consider changing their plan radically. Remember the evacuation plan Aeson was talking about a while ago, where Vox moved its forces towards RP's territory with our help, in 2 turns? Why wouldn't this apply to now too?

I think the 18 turns are too long, and most surely we can come up with a plan to speed things up considerably. All they need is 1 galley with a settler, or a gifted city which they can pump to capital size, and they're off. The only reason to keep such a long delay in getting all of Stormia (the hell with Estonia, that's Voxian language ) is that it would guarantee Engineering.

DeepO

	16-06-2003 03:34									#22
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Oh, and in case we need decide we don't like all of the city locations, we should demand a slave for each city disbanded. That's our pop, so we keep them

Besides, I wouldn't mind a couple of slaves as part of the deal, I prefer them over catapults we need to spend upkeep on.

DeepO

	16-06-2003 04:19									#23
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Another thing: I think we should definately demand that we plan their Voxodus (well, they proposed it, so that won't be a problem), but would it be possible to go one step further, and actually play their turns? I'm not sure if Nathan needs the extra turn to play, but you never know

DeepO

	16-06-2003 04:24									#24
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quote: and actually play their turns?

Might be too much, could be looked upon as trying to humiliate them.

	16-06-2003 04:30									#25
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Bah, that was not my intention, no need to humiliate them. It's just easier for us...

DeepO

	16-06-2003 04:58									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Correct me if I'm wrong, the most immeidate need is to say yea or nay to a 1 turn armistice?

What do we get for 'yea', other than good will, and an opportunity for re-inforcements?

Why shouldn't we get, say, D-ville?

	16-06-2003 05:04									#27
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Oh, and by the way, guys, we definitely need some polls here. I know that Beta has apologized, and I know that Vox could be gifted a city at any moment ("And poof, just like that they were gone."), but I am not sure that I, at least, don;t want to kick their f*cking asses off Stormia by hand and with much blood.

	16-06-2003 05:06									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Why shouldn't we get, say, D-ville?

After we've made a big fuss of how useless it is to us?

	16-06-2003 05:31									#29
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Well, OK, bad example, but we should get something.

	16-06-2003 15:08									#30
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I think we could probably come up with something that gives them as much value, and takes roughly 10 turns to get them off completely. DeepO is right, they don't need galleys at all, teleportation works fine. One of the reasons they probably want to do this slow is that Engineering is going to take them that long to get to.

Another thing is... are they insane? They will have 1 city and over 20 units? I hope they are planning on using all those units to disband and rush something... and most of the workers to build up the city's population... otherwise they'll be losing a ton of gold per turn.