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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
No, I wouldn't. If any civ decides to take them out right now, it's not going to help them to have a few more Pikes to die. Their army isn't helping them all that much against us right now...
It's going to hurt Vox in the long run to keep their army. It's going to slow down their exodus, and thus they start rebuilding later, and all the while having to pay way too much in support costs. Think of it like wandering around with your Settler at the start of the game, getting warriors from huts so that your first city is better protected. |
Sure, they'll have to pay killer upkeep now, but that would save them plenty of shields and time to rebuild these pikes later (I believe we're talking about 16 30 shields units, that's 480 shields).
IMHO, we're so small and disadvantages now that we have no hope of defending ourselves from anyone anyway does not justify giving up on building some sort of a military anyway.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:28
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Vel, re Vox escaping. We can't stop it, and we'd be tilting at windmills trying to hunt them down. The point is that other teams are fond of them, and anyone would welcome a 40 turn research puppet.
Say Lego gifts them a city, we raze North Stormia, and launch an expedition to destroy Vox. We arrive in Lego waters undetected. We find Vox's new city and it is their only one. We land so they know we are there. Assuming that this unlikely scenario occurs, RP will grant them an isolated burg, it would be well worth it for them to get control of the puppet.
What we would accomplish is that other teams would see us as vengeful (true) and unreasonable (true to the subjects making the observation). We would lose more. We would also lose any possibility of ever normalising relations with Vox and Beta.
At this point I believe that we can normalise relations with Vox, and with Beta most likely. When I ranted at vondrack in that chat, I did it for a reason. Whatever I said was going straight to Beta (or at least the jist of it) as well as being reported to Lego and other teams. From hanging in the public chat it was clear to me that many members of other teams could not understand why most of GS would be so furious with Beta and Vox. Some people thought we were the bad guys for personal attacks on Beta (accusations of lies, etc.). I made it clear, and I believe the message got through (it helped that I know vondrack and he was inclined to listen to me) that the lies and the way they were being presented as well as received were personal attacks on all of us in GS, and that some of us were near leaving the game over it. The next day, Beta posted the mia culpa.
I think Beta now knows that an Iraqi information campaign against another team in an intrasite game is a very bad plan. I think he is more than capable of realising that the cost to Vox of this war is entirely of their own determining. I think that Vox will get over it. I think we should too.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:28
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quote:
When I ranted at vondrack in that chat, I did it for a reason. Whatever I said was going straight to Beta (or at least the jist of it) as well as being reported to Lego and other teams. From hanging in the public chat it was clear to me that many members of other teams could not understand why most of GS would be so furious with Beta and Vox. Some people thought we were the bad guys for personal attacks on Beta (accusations of lies, etc.). I made it clear, and I believe the message got through (it helped that I know vondrack and he was inclined to listen to me) that the lies and the way they were being presented as well as received were personal attacks on all of us in GS, and that some of us were near leaving the game over it. |
Well done. Vondrack had PM'd me after I suggested a GS-Lego chat, but I didn't get it until this morning. I responded, got a response, and responded again. I kinda said what you said in my own way.
Regarding Vox, I totally agree with your take on this: we don't really have a choice now, since Lego is going to harbor them. We need to cut the best deal possible & make peace. So let's get on it! Let's convince them to use teleportation to speed their exodus, and let's get tech out of them. 
-Arrian
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:28
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One thing I seem to have read in their proposal, but others don't is that it seems to me that Vox is asking for time to get all their pop, except the last 1 in a city, off to Lego Minor.
In case we help them, they expect us to turn their size 5 cities into 2 settlers and 1 GS Size 1 city. So, the question is not so much if Vox will get 7 cities from us, instead of 1 city from Lego (if we teleport them away), they already have a plan on how many cities they want to start with. It remains about timing, and with the teleportation trick, we can do better.
If we want to shave off another turn, we palace jump them with 1 city remaining on Stormia. I'm not saying it will be 100% fool proof (and I don't know the exact details of the palace jump equation either), but any city they gain from Lego should be able to grow to size 2 in 10 turns. If, at that same time, all Voxian cities are size 1, they can gift all but one to us, disband their capital, move into their last city with all their troops, and give it to us. I think that saves 1 turn at least.
Sending galleys is just plainly stupid, of course.
DeepO
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:28
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Draft (likely missing some things):
quote:
Greetings People of Vox Controli,
It is with mixed feelings that I look upon this day. I am happy that the war is drawing to a close, but saddened that the kind of close relationship that once seemed to make sharing our small continent practical no longer exists.
Since receiving Eli's proposal, several of us in Gathering Storm have taken an active interest in how best to conduct Vox's evacuation. Our goals are not only to make the evacuation rapid, but also to help you regain prosperity as quickly as practical. In particular, one idea that occurred to us is that a combinaiton of a free palace jump to the other continent and a city-gift teleport (putting your units in a city, giving the city to us, and having the units automatically go to your new capital) could get all of your forces provided for under the treaty away without a need to build additional galleys. More importantly, it could make it practical to build settlers in your current core and use them to set up additional cities in your new core quickly. (That could be especially important in avoiding financial disaster from upkeep costs with how many units you want to keep - especially since workers also count as units.) And eliminating the need for additional galleys should speed up the process as well.
Such a technique, in turn, should make it practical to evacuate a population equivalent to your current population in well under 18 turns. We therefore propose that rather than fixing a specific time period, Vox focus its production exclusively on building workers and settlers equivalent to your current population (with settlers counting as two population points, of course, as per standard Civ rules). Once you have done so, we can arrange the transfer of the cities to Gathering Storm in a manner that leaves you and your units in your new home. We would expect you not to go overboard in choosing settlers over workers, but a reasonable number of settlers could make excellent sense to get your new core established quickly.
We would like to ask for one early exception, however. Dissidentville adds almost nothing to your production capacity, and is close enough to our core that we would consider it useful to have control of that location sooner rather than later. We'll very likely want to move the city, in which case disbanding units in order to disband the city with a settler when it grows would leave the area free for us while helping you with your population transfer. And since the duration of the treaty would be based on evacuating population equal to your current population, it would ultimately have no great impact on your overall resettlement plans.
We would also like to ask for two additional concessions from you: the options to get Engineering and the free technology you get on entering the industrial era from you for free if, at the times you get them, we have not already acquired those technologies in some other way. Note that in the case of your free industrial tech, this provision would make it in our interest to have you technologically healthy when we enter the industrial era.
This represents some departure from what Eli sent regarding the exact timing and mechanics of the evacuation. But it should serve the fundamental purpose of evacuating your people to another continent just as well, and perhaps significantly better if it would speed up the process of founding additional cities in your new home.
Just to clarify a point, we hope your intent is that transferrable city improvements be left intact when turning cities over to us. It would, of course, make perfect sense to sell cultural improvements prior to transferring cities since those cannot be taken over by the new owners.
We hope that these amendments to Eli's proposal are acceptable to you. I'm sure our decision to require your emigration is causing some strain in your feelings toward us, much as your surprise attack on us caused a strain in our feelings, but it is my hope that both of our nations can strive to put these things behind us and start looking for opportunities for mutual benefit once more. Perhaps absence can, as the saying goes, make the heart grow fonder. 
Sincerely,
The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist |
Last edited by nbarclay on 17-06-2003 at 11:58
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16-06-2003 20:34
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