03-07-2003 21:57									#91
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Half of the European press including the most serious sources call him that way often, except of course his own media....but maybe that is all part of the evil conspiracy against poor Silvio, as mentioned by him while he appeared at the court in Italy before his little immunity law saved him from such unamusing things.... Also, except of course in his own media, his latest "joke" got a negative echo, not only in left newspapers....

so enough newspapers call Shulz a kapo that makes it OK? either these comments are acceptable or they arent.

	03-07-2003 21:58									#92
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I would say that the Lybians and Ethiopians whom the Italians gassed in the 20's and 30's would think higly of the morality of Italian soldiers.

I didnt say they were perfect, but that they were far better than the wehrmacht. Are you denying that?

	03-07-2003 22:00									#93
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I´ll ask Markos if we Germans could have a special permition to use nazi avatars since any poster here must be warned of so much evil-doers

	03-07-2003 22:00									#94
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anymore is not quite cool, it hadn't happened before. and there really wasn't too much resistance, not from young people either. of course you can't resist arrestation from a group of well exercised gestapo guys, but you cannot tell what a bit of organised resistance, like in the ghetto or even among the french civilian population, would have changed

BTW, we've seen that Americans are largely advocates of the fascist and especially national socialist system, "because as a white person you had to fear nothing and your life was so wonderful". as an American you can't tell me how to deal with the past

thanks for the sig space.

	03-07-2003 22:02									#95
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I didnt say they were perfect, but that they were far better than the wehrmacht. Are you denying that?

In their treatment of those deemed undesireables by the nazi regime? most certainly. In the ability to wage war? certainly not.

	03-07-2003 22:03									#96
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The Italians might have been more morally upright, but the discussion is who would win in a fight, and no one can say (if one assumes for some reason that perfomances in WW2 somehow can tell us what the current outcome would be) that the Italians would even slow the Germans down.

a meaningless what if and idiotic assumptions. In 1943 italians were unenthusiastic for war (more credit to them) while Germans were enthusiastic (more shame) Italians had obsolete weapons, and many soldiers were illiterate. Italy today is educationally much closer to GErmany, and in a german invasion the Italians would be fighting with nationalist enthusiam, and the germans would not. In addition the germans would have to cross the alps, no easy feat.

so i took it not as a serious what if, but as simply a nasty remark about the italian army. To which i responded. Have you followed ecthelions posts about Jews in WW2. He seems to have some fairly far out ideas about what is honorable.

	03-07-2003 22:04									#97
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so enough newspapers call Shulz a kapo that makes it OK? either these comments are acceptable or they arent.

Schulz said this Attila and godfather stuff? Can you give me a source for this?

And even if he did, calling him a Nazi is just a pathetic reaction for a leader of a state. As a professional politician he should know that everything he babbles has more diplomatic impact.

	03-07-2003 22:07									#98
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godfather? he IS one, everyone knows he's observed by mafia hunters, with less than christian results so far...

	03-07-2003 22:07									#99
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark a meaningless what if and idiotic assumptions.

So why get involved?

quote: so i took it not as a serious what if, but as simply a nasty remark about the italian army. To which i responded. Have you followed ecthelions posts about Jews in WW2. He seems to have some fairly far out ideas about what is honorable.

I don;t give a rats ass about what Echtelion posts about Jews in WW2. He can wallow in his willing ignorace all he wants. As for 'nasty remarks about the italian army', it is a common steryotype which, unfortunitely for the Italians, is built on thier sub-par reformance last time they had to fight a major war. They havne't really done anyting since then, and I never hear anyone, even Italians, speak about their martial prowless.

	03-07-2003 22:08									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion anymore is not quite cool, it hadn't happened before. and there really wasn't too much resistance, not from young people either. of course you can't resist arrestation from a group of well exercised gestapo guys, but you cannot tell what a bit of organised resistance, like in the ghetto or even among the french civilian population, would have changed BTW, we've seen that Americans are largely advocates of the fascist and especially national socialist system, "because as a white person you had to fear nothing and your life was so wonderful". as an American you can't tell me how to deal with the past thanks for the sig space.

well i dont go around saying that blacks are sneaky cause they didnt resist enough. If any american did so, id call them a racist.

And of course ive never said anything like your quote above. If someone did say that, take it up with them. I dont blame all germans for what you say - only you (though it might be appropriate if germans replying to this thread replied to you, instead of ignoring you)

Bastard. Nazi.

	03-07-2003 22:12									#101
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who was ever talking about blacks?

and your unbased insults are getting stereotypical

instead of telling me to take "it" up with someone else: if you don't like it, stop ranting

you probably don't get many opportunities to talk to other people, otherwise you'd know how to stay polite.

	03-07-2003 22:12									#102
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quote: Originally posted by GePap . As for 'nasty remarks about the italian army', it is a common steryotype which, unfortunitely for the Italians, is built on thier sub-par reformance last time they had to fight a major war. They havne't really done anyting since then, and I never hear anyone, even Italians, speak about their martial prowless.

It is a common stereotype, which is why i replied. It is untrue as far as WW1 is concerned, as per John Keegan, in his one volume history of world war 1. Im less familiar with the italians in WW2, but think their poor performance was explained by a variety of factors - one of which was their lack of national enthusiasm for the war - which ought not to be considered something shameful, especially by the Germans here.

And I dont think that many people know about the noble acts of the Italian army during the war, and i think its worth letting people know.

	03-07-2003 22:13									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion who was ever talking about blacks? and your unbased insults are getting stereotypical instead of telling me to take "it" up with someone else: if you don't like it, stop ranting you probably don't get many opportunities to talk to other people, otherwise you'd know how to stay polite.

i dont get many opportunities to talk to nazis and dont know how to be polite with them.

	03-07-2003 22:15									#104
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark ....(though it might be appropriate if germans replying to this thread replied to you, instead of ignoring you) ....

If that goes to me - no, I see no reason to reply to Andy, since he´s obviously trolling. And that is not something never seen before....

	03-07-2003 22:18									#105
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Schulz said this Attila and godfather stuff? Can you give me a source for this? And even if he did, calling him a Nazi is just a pathetic reaction for a leader of a state. As a professional politician he should know that everything he babbles has more diplomatic impact.

From the Washington Post

'Green leader Monica Frassoni likened Berlusconi to Attila the Hun, whose barbarian hordes ravished Europe in the 5th century without regard for the law.

"Many people have been worried at your arrival, as an 'Attila of the Union,'" Frassoni said. "Political power, I'm afraid, leads to temptations to be above the law."'

So it was Frassoni, not Shultz. An italian (?) but leader of the euro-greens - any outrage by german or other greens? Or by schulz?

The godfather thing i dont have a good cite for handy right now. IIUC it was part of heckling by a large number of MEP's.

	03-07-2003 22:18									#106
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro If that goes to me - no, I see no reason to reply to Andy, since he´s obviously trolling. And that is not something never seen before....

ive seem him troll, but ive never seem him say anything like this - does he do it regularly??

	03-07-2003 22:19									#107
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As one who has studied the Holocaust for a long time, I personally don;t think germans of today have to "keep anything in mind". I believe people are born innocent. Ignorance by anyone about the past is shamefull, specially somehting like the Holocaust, but I will not hold anyone born after 1945 in any way more responsible than others for anything that hapeend before it, no matter their nationality is.

As for the military aspects: The italians did OK in WW1. Their preformance was neither stelar nor abysmal.
As for WW2, the Italian regime was vaslty better to it's Jewish citizens and Jews living under its rule than most Axis allies. BUt they were Axis allies nonetheless. They may ave portected Jews under them, but how many Jews fell under Nazi rule becuase of their allience? (Including, eventually, those Jews that had fled to Italian lands?)

	03-07-2003 22:20									#108
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Your final word demonstrates your wit and thus following your debating skills.

I'm glad we could get over thsi without any personal insults

	03-07-2003 22:22									#109
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Zog nit keyn mol az du geyst dem letstn veg,
Khotsh himeln blayene farshtein bloye teg.
Kumen vet nokh undzer oysgebenkte sho -
S'vet a poyk ton undzer trot - mir zaynen do!

Fun grinem palmenland biz vaysn land fun shney,
Mir kumen on mit undzer payn, mit undzer vey,
Un vu gefain s'iz a shprits fun undzer blut,
Shprotsn vet dort undzer gvure, undzer mut.


S'vet di morgnzun bagildn undz dem haynt,
Un der nekhtn vet farshvindn mitn faynd,
Nor oyb farzamen vet di zun in dem kayor -
Vi a parol zol geyn dos lid fun dor tsu dor.


Dos lid geshribn iz mit blut un nit mit blay,
S'iz not keyn lidl fun a foygl af der fray,
Dos hot a fold tsvishn faindike vent
Dos lid gezungen mit naganes in di hent!


To zog nit keyn mol az du geyst dem letstn veg,
Khotsh kimlen blayene farshtein bloye teg,
Kumen vet nokh undzer oysgebenkte sho -
S'vet a poyk ton undzer trot - mir zaynen do

	03-07-2003 22:24									#110
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care to translate? Yiddish is not very big anymore.

	03-07-2003 22:24									#111
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GePap: A very correct last post, every word is true.

I would like to point out that Duche wasn't an anti-semite, and deported the Jews only because of his alliance with Hitler.

	03-07-2003 22:25									#112
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lotm, what's your opinion about the former Israeli ambassador to Germany? is he a nzi and bastardm too? HE said it's a scar in Israeli society (or was, in the 50s) that they went down without defense.

...which is what I quoted. strange how it would make someone thinking themselves so educated collapse like that....

	03-07-2003 22:27									#113
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quote: Originally posted by GePap As one who has studied the Holocaust for a long time, I personally don;t think germans of today have to "keep anything in mind". I believe people are born innocent. Ignorance by anyone about the past is shamefull, specially somehting like the Holocaust, but I will not hold anyone born after 1945 in any way more responsible than others for anything that hapeend before it, no matter their nationality is.

reminds me of folks in my country who say they dont owe anything to blacks cause they werent alive during slavery. I disagree. You accept the benefits and assets of being a citizen of a country, you accept its debts. No one says they shouldnt have to pay back govt bonds cause they werent alive when the debt was incurred - applies the same to debts that were never recognized, and to moral obligations as well as financial ones. My country DOES have a special obligation to africa - as President Clinton recognized - and Germans have special obligations as well ( of course if they decide their nationality is European....?)

	03-07-2003 22:28									#114
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I don't think that the unborn carry the debts of their fathers. I do think that it is important to make sure that people understand why something was worng and that it was wrong.

	03-07-2003 22:29									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion lotm, what's your opinion about the former Israeli ambassador to Germany? is he a nzi and bastardm too? HE said it's a scar in Israeli society (or was, in the 50s) that they went down without defense. ...which is what I quoted. strange how it would make someone thinking themselves so educated collapse like that....

They knew less in the 50's, and they were influenced by Israeli stereotypes about the Jews of Europe. Did he also say the things about Jews being sneaks?

	03-07-2003 22:31									#116
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quote: They were in a difficult strategic position - they attacked Austrian and later German troops in impossiple alpine terrain.

yes... impossible... thats why Erwin Rommel single handedly captured practically a batallion there... it sems the alps were just difficult terrain for one side of the war.

Im just going by the Rommel's biography. He learned great disdain toward the Italians in WWI because he at least perceived them to be inept (not to mention he saw them as trecherous), and it frustrated him in WWII when his 'allies' were handicaping him instead of aiding.

Despite the reasons (which are MANY... i wont get into their TERRIBLE service rifle of both world wars...grrr), the Italians practically knew only defeat in those two world wars, leading most to see them as inept. This much is true. But like I said, they had many good reasons for their misfortunes. My earlier comment wasnt serious, btw

	03-07-2003 22:32									#117
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you should just differ between guilt and responsibility. noone can actually blame Germans of today (or anyone else) for what has happened in the past. but people should know what they're seen as abroad, and act in a certain way. I know that when in Israel, I'm the guy from the country that killed their ancestors, so I won't tell every guy there "hey, you can't blame me, it was my grampa not me " or so, wouldn't be appropriate. you offer an ear and show dignity for both yourself and the one you're talking to.

apart from that, you just let it flow, normalcy in relations is the best way to show you've overcome bad times.

normalcy shouldn't be mixed up with blindness though. sometimes people want to keep the illusion of everything being normal when there was no discussion beforehand. there's been a lot of discussion regarding the holocaust though, so normalcy is in fact an option. it's still crucial what you think of yourself and your people though, when you're in that country.

so it's all in "guilt" and "responsibility".

	03-07-2003 22:34									#118
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lord of the marks, why do you think Jews are sneaks?

and in the 50s, they knew in schemes what had happened. and they did not WANT to know more because of the shame, acording to that man, who seemed a great guy to me

	03-07-2003 22:36									#119
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quote: Originally posted by GePap care to translate? Yiddish is not very big anymore.

Never say that this is the end of the road.
Wherever a drop of our blood fell, there our courage will
grow anew.
This song, written in blood, was sung by a people fighting
for life and freedom.
Our triumph will come and our resounding footsteps will
proclaim "We are here!"

From land of palm-trees to the far-off land of snow.
We shall be coming with our torment, with our woe;
And everywhere our blood has sunk into the earth
Shall our bravery, or vigor blossom forth.

We'll have the morning sun to set our day aglow;
Our evil yesterdays shall vanish with the foe.
But if the time is long before the sun appears,
then let this song go like a signal through the years.

This song was written with our blood, and not with lead;
It's not a song that summer birds sing overhead;
It was a people, amidst burning barricades,
That sang this song of ours with pistols and grenades.

So never say you now go on your last way,
Through darkened skies may now conceal the blue of day,
Because the hour for which we've hungered is so near,
Beneath our feet the earth shall thunder, "We are here!"

	03-07-2003 22:38									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman yes... impossible... thats why Erwin Rommel single handedly captured practically a batallion there... it sems the alps were just difficult terrain for one side of the war.

the italians had tactical victories as well, ISTR.