03-07-2003 22:40									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion lord of the marks, why do you think Jews are sneaks? and in the 50s, they knew in schemes what had happened. and they did not WANT to know more because of the shame, acording to that man, who seemed a great guy to me

and today israelis and other jews are not ashamed. They know both of the physical resistance of some, and the spiritual resistance of others.

	03-07-2003 22:41									#122
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I´ll ask Markos if we Germans could have a special permition to use nazi avatars since any poster here must be warned of so much evil-doers

ive never said most germans are evil doers, nor do i think so.

	03-07-2003 22:43									#123
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quote: Originally posted by GP I don't think that the unborn carry the debts of their fathers. I do think that it is important to make sure that people understand why something was worng and that it was wrong.

you take your fathers house, you take the mortgage tht goes with it. you dont want the mortgage, leave the house.

and can i tell the IRS that i dont want to pay for the part of the national debt incurred before i was born?

	03-07-2003 22:46									#124
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark and Germans have special obligations as well ( of course if they decide their nationality is European....?)

That isn´t disputed here, of course this is true, and it is not affected by a European identity Germany could adopt (but I think we would never simply say we are not Germans, but Europeans, so we aren´t responsible). But this is not primarily an individual problem. When you ask me personally if I feel responsible for WWII or Holocaust, then the answer is "no, not at all". But this doesn´t mean that we are not aware of our history, and that Germany as a whole should not be committed to certain relations with Israel. But you can´t hold individuals responsible for things they never did, only because they are part of the same nation which did horrible things 50 years ago.

IMO, GP summed it up perfectly here:

quote: I do think that it is important to make sure that people understand why something was worng and that it was wrong.

	03-07-2003 22:49									#125
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark reminds me of folks in my country who say they dont owe anything to blacks cause they werent alive during slavery.

They don't as individuals owe blacks anything for slavery whatsoever. As indidivuals they owe blacks for either partaking or condoning a system in which they are still discriminated against. THAT is the debt, one of today, not of the past.

quote: I disagree. You accept the benefits and assets of being a citizen of a country, you accept its debts. No one says they shouldnt have to pay back govt bonds cause they werent alive when the debt was incurred - applies the same to debts that were never recognized, and to moral obligations as well as financial ones.

Ctizenship is a legal definition, and one that can be changed. I assume you believe that if a kid is born in the US to American parents, but at legal age moves to a different country and renoucnes American citizenship and delcares himself citizen of another country, that is is utterly absolved of debts of his birth? As is is of any finantial debts the country he was once a citizen of? And of course, yo do assume he assumed the debts of the other, right? Case the guilt is based on a legally defined situation?

quote: My country DOES have a special obligation to africa - as President Clinton recognized -

American does have an olbigation to Africa, for things done during the lifetimes of many American officials that still live and may still hold power. We have an olbigation for our ongoing conduct, as a goernment and society, yes. But not for the century past.

quote: and Germans have special obligations as well ( of course if they decide their nationality is European....?)

I do nott hink so. They have oligations in the present and for the future, but not from the past.

	03-07-2003 22:51									#126
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark and can i tell the IRS that i dont want to pay for the part of the national debt incurred before i was born?

You don;t pay the national debt, you pay taxes. If the governemnt decides not to pay its debt, then that is the government's fault. your obligation to pay taxes now, as a duty of a citizen. It is politicians who decide spending priorities.

	03-07-2003 22:55									#127
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro That isn´t disputed here, of course this is true, and it is not affected by a European identity Germany could adopt (but I think we would never simply say we are not Germans, but Europeans, so we aren´t responsible). But this is not primarily an individual problem. When you ask me personally if I feel responsible for WWII or Holocaust, then the answer is "no, not at all". But this doesn´t mean that we are not aware of our history, and that Germany as a whole should not be committed to certain relations with Israel. But you can´t hold individuals responsible for things they never did, only because they are part of the same nation which did horrible things 50 years ago. IMO, GP summed it up perfectly here:

i dont disagree with what you have said. This arose because i suggested that Germans should be aware of the role of the Italian army in WW2, and its contrast with the wehrmacht. This in a context where several posters, germans among them, were mocking the Italian army. I dont think that implies personal responsibility by contemporary Germans for the holocaust.

As a US citizen, I accept a national responsibility for slavery, despite it happenening before i was born or my ancestors came to the US. And if an American were to mock the performance of the Brit navy the 1840's, when britain had banned slavery and my nation had not, and someone pointed out the anti-slave trade activities of the brit navy, and said that as an american i should be particulary aware of them, i would think that appropriate.

(sudden flash - major image of Royal navy fighting the slave trade in recent american culture - from Spielberg's "Amistad" Spielberg also filmed "Schindlers List" paradigmatic image of a righteous German in recent American culture. so we go in circles)

	03-07-2003 22:56									#128
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I summed it up quite well, too.

	03-07-2003 22:57									#129
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Ctizenship is a legal definition, and one that can be changed. I assume you believe that if a kid is born in the US to American parents, but at legal age moves to a different country and renoucnes American citizenship and delcares himself citizen of another country, that is is utterly absolved of debts of his birth? As is is of any finantial debts the country he was once a citizen of? And of course, yo do assume he assumed the debts of the other, right? Case the guilt is based on a legally defined situation?

precisely - i did not say guilt, i said obligation.

	03-07-2003 23:00									#130
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and the German obligation is?

	03-07-2003 23:02									#131
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that's what I've been talking about all the time, has noone read my post on the matter?

	03-07-2003 23:04									#132
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You're from the East. Nobody cares what you say.

	03-07-2003 23:05									#133
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You don;t pay the national debt, you pay taxes. If the governemnt decides not to pay its debt, then that is the government's fault. your obligation to pay taxes now, as a duty of a citizen. It is politicians who decide spending priorities.

i have a moral obligation to do what i can within a democratic system to ensure that the government pays its debt - and a similar moral obligation to see that the government pays it moral debts. And my obligations as a citizen may go beyond formal legal obligations, to acting as a meritorious citizen, in ways that reflect well on my country, and that take into account my country's moral obligations. my country pays its moral debts not only in actions of the government, but through actions of the people. ( i think we are getting into a split between a contractual definition of the state, rooted in 17th cent pol philosophy, and a notion that there are morally relevant social entities, families, nations, etc and human beings can have obligations beyond personal and contractual ones. i dont think we're going to resolve that here, and i think youre getting a little worked up about an aside about obligations of Germans to be aware of something. But then i get worked up about asides too, so who am i to complain? Lets just leave it now)

	03-07-2003 23:07									#134
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GP, please... what happened to your handle change plans anyway?

	03-07-2003 23:08									#135
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quote: Originally posted by GePap and the German obligation is?

In this case, what i said (or meant to say) was an obligation to keep in mind the moral performance of the Italian army when discussing the role of the Italian army in WW2. Thats all, not an obligation to pay anyone, fight anywhere, or cast particular votes at the UN. If i had known we were going to get into a phil tussle, i wouldnt have mentioned it - it didnt really add very much to the rest of my post.

	03-07-2003 23:09									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion GP, please... what happened to your handle change plans anyway?

Maybe I should ask for a vacation. I am doing a lot of spamming and trolling.

	03-07-2003 23:10									#137
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same here

	03-07-2003 23:13									#138
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark precisely - i did not say guilt, i said obligation.

If the German obligation is to remeber, and to know that they have done something wrong, believe me, they are more than living with this obligation.
If the German obligation is to shut up everytime they'd compare something evil with Hitler (btw, a horror they experienced first hand), and to shut up eveytime they are told being nazis, well, I don't agree with you.

BTW, Germany has made huge efforts into remebering and acknowledging its horrible past. France has recently been doing so recently. Where are the other countries ? Where does the US officially apologize for the Indian genocide ? Where does Australia officially apologize for the Native genocide ? Where does Japan officially apologize for WW2 horrors ? Where does Turkey officially apologize for the 1915 genocide ?

Face it, the Krauts (and to some extent the Frogs) are the ones who can give lessons when it comes to the "obligation of memory".

	03-07-2003 23:14									#139
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Spiffor

I'm getting sick of that American moral high ground...

	03-07-2003 23:16									#140
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The moral performance of the Italian Army? And how much can you separate this from the overall moral performance of the Italian state which this army served? That by its actions facilitated german actions, and hence all the immoralities of the German army serving the Nazi state?

In the discussion as it was, the morality of either force was a non-issue.

quote: i have a moral obligation to do what i can within a democratic system to ensure that the government pays its debt - and a similar moral obligation to see that the government pays it moral debts.

Not realy. You assume a moral system in which debts exists. The government can i theory incurr finatial debt forever,.a s long as it could both service it and meet other fiscal responsibilities. Of course, the goevrnment could always nullify its debt and move on. I assume you don't think "moral debts" can just be defaulted on?

I believe in moral responsibilities for individuals and groups, but not in moral debts for groups, only for individuals.

	03-07-2003 23:22									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Spiffor I'm getting sick of that American moral high ground...

GePap and Spiffor are fine. But little Eastie is a beastie. Commie borderguard shooting people trying to escape.

	03-07-2003 23:25									#142
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I knew there was something I liked about him.

	03-07-2003 23:27									#143
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everyone knows "GP" is just an acronym for "GePap"

and stop making fun of victims of the system [/lotm mode]

	03-07-2003 23:30									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If the German obligation is to remeber, and to know that they have done something wrong, believe me, they are more than living with this obligation. If the German obligation is to shut up everytime they'd compare something evil with Hitler (btw, a horror they experienced first hand), and to shut up eveytime they are told being nazis, well, I don't agree with you. BTW, Germany has made huge efforts into remebering and acknowledging its horrible past. France has recently been doing so recently. Where are the other countries ? Where does the US officially apologize for the Indian genocide ? Where does Australia officially apologize for the Native genocide ? Where does Japan officially apologize for WW2 horrors ? Where does Turkey officially apologize for the 1915 genocide ? Face it, the Krauts (and to some extent the Frogs) are the ones who can give lessons when it comes to the "obligation of memory".

i do not think Germans are required to shut up whenever they are told they are Nazis. I never said so.
Do the germans have the right to compare other evils with Nazis? Im not sure. I have trouble with anyone comparing other evils to the holocaust - i have trouble with Jews directly comparing other evils to the holocaust (though i realize i have said things that might be read that way - im sorry if i was sloppy) And yes, i would say that applies a fortiori to Germans.

Should the US officially apologize for past mis-deeds? President Clinton apologized to Africa for the slave trade. I thought he was right to do so. Should we officially apologize for misdeeds against American Indians - I would agree. We have done much here to focus on the history of african americans, including slavery and Jim Crow, and on the history of Native Americans.

I am quite aware of what the FRG has done in holocaust awareness, memory and eductation, and I quite admire it. I was not saying that the FRG has failed in that regard, i was making an aside in regard to a fairly narrow issue. I dont think I was wrong, but i now think my turn of phrase has taken away from what i intended to say, and i regret it.

I do note that the person posting anti-semitic material is someone from that portion of Germany not originally part of the FRG, where, IIUC, holocaust remembrance and education were profoundly different than in the FRG. OTOH I assumed he was young enough he'd be a product of the FRG educational system. I hope this way of thinking is not common in the eastern lander of todays FRG.

	03-07-2003 23:37									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion everyone knows "GP" is just an acronym for "GePap" and stop making fun of victims of the system [/lotm mode]

Stasi collaborators are not victims.

	03-07-2003 23:38									#146
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Not realy. You assume a moral system in which debts exists. The government can i theory incurr finatial debt forever,.a s long as it could both service it and meet other fiscal responsibilities. Of course, the goevrnment could always nullify its debt and move on. I assume you don't think "moral debts" can just be defaulted on? I believe in moral responsibilities for individuals and groups, but not in moral debts for groups, only for individuals.

Only an individual can be a moral actor. Well, of course.
But i may have moral obligations relating to my role in the state. Suppose the US govt does something negligent - lets say it runs experiments on people by not treating them for syphilis for example. They sue for damages. Lets say the govt decides to default on that obligation. Of course its defaulting on a legal obligation,not a moral one, since its not a moral actor. Suppose now it becomes a matter for debate during an election campaign, and one politician says we should make a payment to the those who were wronged in this experiment, and another says no. Do I have a moral obligation to (ceteris paribus) to vote for the one calling for payment to the victims - I would argue that I do have such an obligation.

I would go further (though its not necessary for the above point) that i have such an obligation, even though said experiment happened before I was born.

	03-07-2003 23:39									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Spiffor I'm getting sick of that American moral high ground...

thats fairly obvious.

	03-07-2003 23:40									#148
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I agree that, despite there were other genocides, the holocaust has its special characteristics. We shouldn´t "compare" those crimes, certainly not for relativating the worst one (and I think this wasn´t Spiffs intention), which in my eyes the holocaust is.

quote: I hope this way of thinking is not common in the eastern lander of todays FRG.

If Andy wouldn´t be such a bloody troll, he wouldn´t post such things either, because I highly doubt he actually thinks this way. Oh, and there are other posters from the eastern part of Germany

	03-07-2003 23:40									#149
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quote: Originally posted by GP Stasi collaborators are not victims.

I dont know what the gentleman in question does in real life. I am only making points about his behavior here.

	03-07-2003 23:40									#150
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you were making fun of those shot at the border. those were not collaborators.

I'm a friend of chemistry, so stop being nasty. I bet lotm is not.