04-07-2003 07:36									#61
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Not to mention that 4 out of the last 5 Presidents were from the south.

This explains perfectly why the South must secede !

For the North to restore its greatness

	04-07-2003 07:41									#62
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Not to mention that 4 out of the last 5 Presidents were from the south.

hmmm:
Bush? texas (nominally south, southwest really)
Clinton: check
Bush 1: Oh, yeah Texas (not really the south), zion of a Conneticutt Yankee family. How Southern....
Reagan: Born in illinois, no? Not aouth then.
Carter: yup.

That is some Enron-like accounting.

	04-07-2003 07:43									#63
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Ge:
It seems Texas is the "South" in the meaning of "former confederacy"

	04-07-2003 07:45									#64
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Agrees

	04-07-2003 07:47									#65
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Meh.... He is still wrong, in that Reagan has no south in him. and the BUsh family comes form a line of Conneticutt Yankees, with Bush the Younger being one of the first not to really growq up there, and he grw up in West Texas.

The only two trully southern boys to be president in the last 26 years have both been dems, Billy and Jimmy.

	04-07-2003 07:48									#66
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Spiffor: I thought you liked Clinton, btw .

	04-07-2003 07:54									#67
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I only "like" the half-assed, treacherous, lying, deceptive, hypocrite, warlike right-winger called Bill Clinton in comparison to the even more pathetic George Bush Jr.

	04-07-2003 08:00									#68
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Meh.... He is still wrong, in that Reagan has no south in him. and the BUsh family comes form a line of Conneticutt Yankees, with Bush the Younger being one of the first not to really growq up there, and he grw up in West Texas. The only two trully southern boys to be president in the last 26 years have both been dems, Billy and Jimmy.

I'll give you that one!

Don't get me wrong, I do not want to secede. I merely want to point out that there is much revisionist history that is being taught. To suggest that I get my information from Southern textbooks is ridiculous. I am actually old enough to have talked with the children of people who were alive then. I have also read, over the years, many 1st hand accounts from eye witnesses. Is the world better off because the South lost? Yeah, probably. The point is that the North was brutal, and they were responsible for many of the post war problems. Was the South without fault? Of course no and I would not mean to suggest such. However, if your(generic, not you specifically GePap) view is the mainstream view then I suggest that you are the one that needs to look at the total picture.

	04-07-2003 08:23									#69
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I think the South should secede, I see no reason why they should not be allowed to. I would give them my blessings to boot.

	04-07-2003 11:18									#70
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Only if the ice queen becomes president in 2008. Then we can all join them

	04-07-2003 11:56									#71
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker MtG: they had already gained their "independence". They then attacked Union troops. THEY were the agressors.

Union troops occupying (and being resupplied and reinforced) positions within sovereign foreign states. They wouldn't negotiate, so they were evicted. Occupation of foreign territory by armed forces without the consent of the occupied power is an act of war.

quote: The south just wanted to be let alone, so it could oppress people in without interference

The north was such a worker's paradise that you had the baker's riots over the 100 hour work week, the first domestic "terrorist" organization, the Molly Maguires, the Pullman strike, the Grangers, Anti-Chinese Leagues, and I could go on and list hundreds of distinct acts of oppression of minorities and working class Americans within Yankee territory.

	04-07-2003 12:05									#72
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Because Lincoln was a visionary and actually cared about the slavery issue, maybe?

Which is why the Emancipation Proclamation expressly confirmed the right of any state to keep slaves if it returned to the Union prior to January 1, 1863...

Which is why Lincoln was claimed by Douglass and others to have state that the black man was not capable of coexisting with whites in white society as an equal, so Lincoln advocated deportation of free blacks to a territory to be set up for them outside the US...

Which is why Lincoln said if he had to maintain slavery to preserve the Union, he would do so...

Which is why the Yankee government permitted slavery to remain in the Union state of Delaware, and in the border/union occupied states of Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri...

Ol' Abe the Visionary.

	04-07-2003 12:07									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX it wasn't that we WANTED to slaughter them, its just we had a cannon and we were shooting at a fly.

Which is why it took you four years and 100,000 more fatalities to prosecute a 2.5 to 1 advantage in manpower, and materiel and logistic advantages in every category?

That fly bit holes in your asses plenty of times.

	04-07-2003 12:16									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Can anybody tell me why the North wanted to crush the south ? I doubt the politicians of that time would have risked hundreds of thousands of lives and the collapse of the fledgling economy just to save slaves, so please tell me about the other motives, thanks .

A major part had simply to do with the Monroe Doctrine - France and England still had imperial ambitions in this hemisphere, and after the land theft from Mexico in the Mexican "war" the US was the dominant power in the hemisphere.

A live CSA would have not only restrained US power, it would be free to conduct it's own foreign policy wrt England and France, and the rest of the hemisphere.

There was also a longstanding economic rivalry between northern manufacturers and mills, and southern resource producers.

	04-07-2003 12:18									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Point. Set. Match. ACK!

I'm sure they'd all much rather prefer that the Yankees, Brits, Portuguese, et al left them in Africa.

	04-07-2003 12:26									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar boohoo. crops grow back. I've never read of mass starvation of civilians.

Oh, the Shenandoah valley ring a bell? Not only crops, but livestock and homes - what couldn't be "appropriated" was burned to the ground.

quote: Yeah? Name a infamous summary execution.

How about torture and execution? Dee Jobe for one. Ordered summary execution for Morgan's cavalry, whether or not implicated in any violation of the articles of war. Pope's occupation orders. If you want to dig, you can find.

	04-07-2003 12:27									#77
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun In honor of the courage of the 20th Maine soldiers under Col. Joshua Chamberlain.

Yours is fake. Mine are real.

Chamberlain was a hell of a leader, though.

	05-07-2003 00:01									#78
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Oh, the Shenandoah valley ring a bell? Not only crops, but livestock and homes - what couldn't be "appropriated" was burned to the ground.

I know Sheridan burned the Shenandoah to the ground...so? There wasn't widespread civilian starvation.

quote: How about torture and execution? Dee Jobe for one. Ordered summary execution for Morgan's cavalry, whether or not implicated in any violation of the articles of war. Pope's occupation orders. If you want to dig, you can find.

Yeah,well, Pope was a d!ck.

But you saw the same on the confederate side with their treatment of black soldiers, so it isn't anything special.

	05-07-2003 01:25									#79
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And all that still matters is that the North won, the South lost, and we celebrate the 4th for all it stands for, inlcuding those union victories.

GO UNION!

	05-07-2003 01:48									#80
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So who do you guys think would win a new Civil War in this day and age? My money's on the South; they no longer have a lot of the disadvantages of the first war and the Yankees are bigger pussies than they every were. It'd be over in a week.

	05-07-2003 02:01									#81
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat A major part had simply to do with the Monroe Doctrine - France and England still had imperial ambitions in this hemisphere, and after the land theft from Mexico in the Mexican "war" the US was the dominant power in the hemisphere. A live CSA would have not only restrained US power, it would be free to conduct it's own foreign policy wrt England and France, and the rest of the hemisphere. There was also a longstanding economic rivalry between northern manufacturers and mills, and southern resource producers.

Yep an independent Confederacy that fought for its independence would have gone on to conquer Mexico, Central America, and the Carribbean to gain control over plantation economies based on slavery.

lovely

	05-07-2003 02:08									#82
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I love how you can just spin alternative history out of the orifice of your choice. Such an exceptional ability.

	05-07-2003 02:17									#83
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I love how you can just spin alternative history out of the orifice of your choice. Such an exceptional ability.

You cannot deny the primary sources that show some Confederate leaders proposing ambitious plans to conquer parts of the Western hemisphere to create a slave-based economic empire under Southern states' control.

	05-07-2003 02:18									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten So who do you guys think would win a new Civil War in this day and age? My money's on the South; they no longer have a lot of the disadvantages of the first war and the Yankees are bigger pussies than they every were. It'd be over in a week.

Hmm....

Tank plants' in Ohio...

Boeing Plants are in Seattle and Missouri...

Commercial shipyards divided 50/50

Lockheed Titan plants in Colorado...

Northrup Grumman in Cali

Raytheon in Boston, Cali

FMC in Fresno....

hmm...

hmmm...

North.

	05-07-2003 02:22									#85
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I can't believe I am actually doing this.

USA! USA! USA! USA!

	05-07-2003 02:23									#86
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quote: Boeing Plants are in Seattle and Missouri... Lockheed Titan plants in Colorado... Northrup Grumman in Cali Raytheon in Boston, Cali FMC in Fresno....

How do you know these states would side with the Union? Maybe Cali, since they're all hippies, but Colorado and Missouri have their fair share of rednecks. As a resident of a state not involved in the first Civil War, I can say that many here might side with the South, if only because we hate arrogant Yankees as much as they do.

	05-07-2003 02:24									#87
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Hmmm... Fort Hood, Texas; Fort Benning, Georgia; Fort Stewart, Georgia; Fort Campbell, Kentucky (mostly in Tennessee), Fort Bragg, North Carolina; Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.

South.

	05-07-2003 02:27									#88
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You cannot deny the primary sources that show some Confederate leaders proposing ambitious plans to conquer parts of the Western hemisphere to create a slave-based economic empire under Southern states' control.

What an individual suggests rhetorically is a bit different from national policy.


So I suppose the US is going to revoke the 19th Amendment because Ann Coulter said it was a mistake to give women the vote and the right likes to listen to her?

	05-07-2003 02:28									#89
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Btw, You'd think that 150 years later, you'd get over this.

	05-07-2003 02:30									#90
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quote: Btw, You'd think that 150 years later, you'd get over this.

Who are you to talk? The Jews still aren't over Massada.