11-07-2003 12:45									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

As the boyfriend to a long time Social worker, and also a son to a social worker, I can tell you that there is starvation in the US. Not a lot, but it happens. It usually occurs for illegal immigrants who cannot get federal help, and have too large a family to feed, with no job skills.
As for malnutrition, it is very widespread in two major areas: Rural poor and urban poor (ok, so basically the poor). Reasons for this is that for people defined under the term "extreme poverty", which is a single household earner with 2 children living under, I believe, 5,000 (IIRC, I may be wrong), must spend an ungodly percentage of their earnings on food to maintain the 2,500 calorie limit. Since rent, daycare (if applicable), utilities, etc are all fixed financial items, it is virtually impossible to allow for the full calorie amount. The reasoning is that some food is better than enough food but no house or no electricity, etc.
There is a very illogical thought process by people in this country that poor people must "not want to eat" or "are spending the money on drugs/cars/TV's". This is hogwash of the worst kind. Undergoing malnutrition or, in extreme cases, starvation, is pretty painful and wrecking, but I guess it's logical to assume some people will endure pain, cramps, fainting, and possible physical harm to get an Xbox
Now, some people may respond with "Ok, illegals starve. So what? They came here illegaly, screw em". That ignores the fact that they are still starving in America. And if we are sending food overseas to countries to prevent starvation, why shouldnt we also help those in our backyards? They are fellow humans as well.

	11-07-2003 12:53									#122
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

okay now for the reason for making this thread. No, it's not a troll. Though I did word it a little bit that way.

I really want to believe there are starving people in the U.S., I really do.

I have not seen it. And don't say I lived in the suburbs or some ****. I grew up poor and lived in a poor neighborhood my teen years. When things got bad, poor people just stole. food was never a problem for most people. The homeless are another story, I do believe there is starvation there. But that isn't due to lack of available food. There are plenty of kitchens for them. Some either can't help themselves, or various addictions interfere with them doing so.

But yes it was only recently I did here there was millions of starving kids in the U.S.

Here's the thing. We all know how liberal media likes to put on pictures of starving kids. They just did that 2 days ago on CNN of starving kids in Africa- those pictures tore me apart. It's terrible what's going on over there. Why don't they put those pictures on of Americans or immigrants starving? And don't tell me it's not a "hot" story. The media loves those sob stories- I see them all the time.

	11-07-2003 13:18									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Dissident okay now for the reason for making this thread. No, it's not a troll. Though I did word it a little bit that way. I really want to believe there are starving people in the U.S., I really do. I have not seen it. And don't say I lived in the suburbs or some ****. I grew up poor and lived in a poor neighborhood my teen years. When things got bad, poor people just stole. food was never a problem for most people. The homeless are another story, I do believe there is starvation there. But that isn't due to lack of available food. There are plenty of kitchens for them. Some either can't help themselves, or various addictions interfere with them doing so.

The problem here, is the whole "i have not seen it" syndrome. When it comes to starvation and malnutrition in this country, the only time it is shown is during holidays (Christmas and Thanksgiving usually). It is during that time that people report on the kitchens for the poor, food shelter needs, etc. Food kitchens are extremly rare, and are only found, for the most part, in major cities, which does no good to the rural poor. Remember, the two poorest counties in the USA are in the southwest of Texas and the Mississippi river delta, far away from major urban centers.
Those food kitchens rely on volunteers and donations, which are very rare outside of major holidays. Also, they are usually county-funded, which means that they are the first to be cut in a budget crunch (like what we have been going through since 2001). And the places that need the most help are the poorest, and have no resources.

[/QUOTE]

quote: But yes it was only recently I did here there was millions of starving kids in the U.S.

Yeah, that probably means malnutrition. The actual starvation cases are MUCH. MUCH less. Malnutrition, yes. [NITPICK] People actually use the argument that since some people look big, they can't be starving or malnurished? You realize in cases of malnutrition and starvation, the body rarely processes the food taken in, to extend the lifespan of the nutrients. Thats why many pictures exist of the starving 5 year olds with guts that would make any coutch potato proud. Thats why if you want to lose weight, for the love of all things holy DO NOT ONLY EAT ONCE PER A DAY! [/NITPICK]

quote: Here's the thing. We all know how liberal media likes to put on pictures of starving kids. They just did that 2 days ago on CNN of starving kids in Africa- those pictures tore me apart. It's terrible what's going on over there. Why don't they put those pictures on of Americans or immigrants starving? And don't tell me it's not a "hot" story. The media loves those sob stories- I see them all the time.

I expect a phrase like "We all know how the liberal media likes to put..." to come out of Rush Limbaugh, not in a (somewhat) well mannered and thought out debate Why hasen't the story been covered? Oh, it has! PBS did an excellent documentary on the subject a year ago, focusing on migrant families especially. The problem, IMHO, is that the story is not picked up because it is happening here, and is too depressing for the news. Any major distressing event being described happening in America is a de-facto swipe at America herself, not to mention showing the shortfalls of the US government in combating that problem, it seems to many media people, and thus is a bad area to tread.
That is why, IMHO, the increadibly important issues of decaying infastructure, homeless veterens (and veterens issues in general), extensive unemployment, etc are virtually ignored. Say what you will, but the current Administration has set a standard for the country that critizing in general is unpatriotic or "Liberal". And many people, including our media, are picking up the message

	11-07-2003 13:29									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by gopher As the boyfriend to a long time Social worker, and also a son to a social worker, I can tell you that there is starvation in the US. Not a lot, but it happens. It usually occurs for illegal immigrants who cannot get federal help, and have too large a family to feed, with no job skills. As for malnutrition, it is very widespread in two major areas: Rural poor and urban poor (ok, so basically the poor). Reasons for this is that for people defined under the term "extreme poverty", which is a single household earner with 2 children living under, I believe, 5,000 (IIRC, I may be wrong), must spend an ungodly percentage of their earnings on food to maintain the 2,500 calorie limit. Since rent, daycare (if applicable), utilities, etc are all fixed financial items, it is virtually impossible to allow for the full calorie amount. The reasoning is that some food is better than enough food but no house or no electricity, etc. There is a very illogical thought process by people in this country that poor people must "not want to eat" or "are spending the money on drugs/cars/TV's". This is hogwash of the worst kind. Undergoing malnutrition or, in extreme cases, starvation, is pretty painful and wrecking, but I guess it's logical to assume some people will endure pain, cramps, fainting, and possible physical harm to get an Xbox Now, some people may respond with "Ok, illegals starve. So what? They came here illegaly, screw em". That ignores the fact that they are still starving in America. And if we are sending food overseas to countries to prevent starvation, why shouldnt we also help those in our backyards? They are fellow humans as well.

A good reason to send the money overseas is that perhaps these failed illegal immigrants will get hungry and go home. Or even not come here illegally in the first place.

Do you have a link to any news stories that document starvation in the U.S.? Not merely a report that Oxfam or some such organization says there is starvation, but a real news story about a discreet person or group who is suffering from starvation. I have read the news regularly for well over 30 years, and can't remember a single story that didn't involve abuse and / or false imprisonment. I'm sure that there must be at least one case, but I stand by my contention that starvation isn't anywhere near the top of a long list of health problems in this country. Obesity on the other hand....

	11-07-2003 13:34									#125
	Increase Your PM Length

I agree that it is not near the top in overall health problems here. What I do contend is that it occurs here. The only time that it's reported nationwide is usally in terms of child neglection cases, and they only last for a single news cycle. Plus, I trust Oxfam and its reports, after all, the UN/WHO consideres them the top NGO for food distribution and starvation/malnutrition

	11-07-2003 13:50									#126
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by gopher I agree that it is not near the top in overall health problems here. What I do contend is that it occurs here. The only time that it's reported nationwide is usally in terms of child neglection cases, and they only last for a single news cycle. Plus, I trust Oxfam and its reports, after all, the UN/WHO consideres them the top NGO for food distribution and starvation/malnutrition

The problem with using a group like Oxfam (or the National Rifle Association for that matter) as a news source is that they have an agenda which doesn't include maintaining as spotless a reputation as possible in regards to the information they put out. As such they aren't any more credible a source than a political party, or any other lobbying group. They are only going to put out information that supports their point of view, and that information is going to be handled solely by people who also support that point of view. You may believe it or not, but don't expect anyone else to give it any more credence than the pronouncements of the politician of your choice.

In my opinion, starvation in the U.S. is at or very near the level that is impossible to deal with without trampling on people's rights or bankrupting the country. Sure we could enlist millions in an attempt to find the dozen or so people who are starving in a remote area, but the money can be much better spent elsewhere.

	11-07-2003 14:17									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Dissident although maybe they were a vegetarian. I shouldn't make assumptions about them. Just because they are homeless, doesn't mean they don't want to eat healthy.

i dont think beggars have the luxury of having a strict deitary alignment

	11-07-2003 20:40									#128
	Inflate your Upload Space

i agree with Dissident but have nothing to add except that

	11-07-2003 20:51									#129
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Good information gopher. I agree with you. You have to basically work with the exptreme poor or be poor to see it. I'm fairly poor and I know people who I'm sure have missed meals.

	11-07-2003 20:54									#130
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Kidicious:

the point isn't if they missed meals... the point is if they truly had to miss meals cause they didnt have access to them...

	11-07-2003 20:59									#131
	Tired of ads?

i remember what one girl said to me... she was at a pizza place and ordered food but then when she was about to pay for it, said that she was sorry but she didnt have enough money for the food and took back her order... said, she couldn't pay the five dollars because she only had 120 dollars on her and she had to buy shoes

THAT is why people don't eat in philly...

	11-07-2003 21:34									#132
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Kidicious: the point isn't if they missed meals... the point is if they truly had to miss meals cause they didnt have access to them...

Yes people do miss meals because they don't have the money. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People who really miss meals because they can't afford them don't go around telling everyone.