14-07-2003 01:53									#181
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It also has the characteristics of progressivism. Why would you call it communism?

	14-07-2003 01:56									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: That is something completely different from advocating that the govt should maintain a certain wage floor. I'm not saying that our minimum wage is the same as his. Marx wished the labor unions (or industrial armies, if you wish) to push for a wage floor, so that all of its members would earn what they needed.

Maybe he did, and maybe he didn't. There is no real proof. The point is that he predicted that working conditions would not improve regardless of the actions of progressives. That makes him a communist.

	14-07-2003 02:01									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Do not some Communists agree with Progressives that the minimum wage should be raised? I can guarentee you that many Communists on this board would say that. I don't think there would be one that wouldn't howl if someone proposed taking it away!

When doing so they are showing the characteristics of progressives, and so they are progressive. When they advocate the overthrow of the capitalist system they are showing the characteristics of communists. So they are both progressives and communists. But if someone supports progressive policies that doesn't make them communist. They are only communist if the predict and support the overthrow of capitalism.

	14-07-2003 02:08									#184
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And if they do so while arguing for higher minimum wages in the meantime? If they identify themselves as Communist and believe in the eventual overthrow of capitalism, aren't they Communists?

	14-07-2003 02:23									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And if they do so while arguing for higher minimum wages in the meantime? If they identify themselves as Communist and believe in the eventual overthrow of capitalism, aren't they Communists?

But their identity with being communist is because they are ideologically opposed to capitalism. It has nothing to do with their support for progressive policies. Their support for progressive policies makes them progressive. A communist has the option of being a progressive, but not all communists are progressives. You could call me a progressive, even though I don't consider myself one. I have voted for progressive politicians and progressive policies, but at other times I have chosen not to vote at all. You can't call a progressive a communist however. Well you could, but the purpose would only be to insult them, unless they truly were communist.

	14-07-2003 02:26									#186
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So... let me get this straight... Communism (of which there are many subsets) can be defined narrowly and strictly, but Fascism (of which there is one subset, and is a subset itself) cannot?

You are just too easy to do this too, Kid.

	14-07-2003 02:31									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So... let me get this straight... Communism can be defined narrowly and strictly, but Fascism cannot? You are just too easy to do this too, Kid.

That's because people don't define right wing people as autoritarian capitalists. They call them fascists. The reason is that there is no clear boundries between the two. Undemocratic capitalists simply call themselves capitalists. On the other hand you have a clear distinction between progressives and communists.

	14-07-2003 02:32									#188
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HAHAHAHAHA well done with the Teacher, Ves. They can suspend you for THAT, though? What grade are you in???

	14-07-2003 02:38									#189
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i'm back. did i miss any good insults?

	14-07-2003 02:40									#190
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All right wing people are not defined Fascists. Only idiots would call Rush Limbaugh, Jesse Helms, Cheney as Fascists.

Fascism is a subset of Absolutism (though most Absolutism is right wing). As is Despotism (which has subsets of its own, including Military Juntas).

US Conservatives are a subset of Capitalist Democracy. Other Conservatives can be a subset of Monarchy or even Despotism, depending.

Fascism is different from most right wing ideologies due to the fact that it is very revolutionary.

Communism, OTOH, is a overarching description of the far left. Communism existed far before Marx was born (Thomas More, for example). Marxism is a subset of Communism, and I'd say Progressivism is subset of Communism as well (under Democratic Communism subset)... however there is also a group of Progressives that exist outside the Communist bubble and are a subset of American liberalism.

The reason for this is there have been a LOT of theorists who have been called 'Communist' (More, Marx, Engles, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Lenin, Stalin etc) who have vastly different point of view... however, there have been a relatively consistant group of Fascist theorists (Barres, Mussolini, Hitler) who don't like capitalism as much as you think they did.

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 14-07-2003 at 02:51

	14-07-2003 02:47									#191
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Exactly, Irman, Even though Hitler and Stalin hated each other's guts, thier political philosophies were quite simmilar. Mussolini was even more simmilar to Stalin. Stalinism and Fascism do not oppose each other, Anarcho-Comunism opposes Fascism and Stalinism opposes Libertarianism.

	14-07-2003 02:51									#192
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Yeah, Stalin wasn't a Commie in my book. Just a plain Despot. While Leninism flows from Marxism (which is slightly different than Democratic Communism), Stalin took it away from that path.

	14-07-2003 02:58									#194
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun

NO SPAMMING!!!

	14-07-2003 02:59									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Odin NO SPAMMING!!!

Why not join the club . . . .

	14-07-2003 03:01									#196
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You still can't clearly define the difference between authoritarianism and totalitarianism except to say that totalitarianism is relatively less democratic since Che and I have successfully argued that totalitarianism is not absolute. Since there have been no absolute totalitarian fascist govts, only relatively undemocratic fascist govts, it follows that fascism is a relative term that simply means authoritarian capitalist government.

End of argument.

	14-07-2003 03:05									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious End of argument.

There are no arguments that have an end here on Apolyton. They always revive themselves sooner or later.

	14-07-2003 03:07									#198
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There are no arguments that have an end here on Apolyton. They always revive themselves sooner or later.

Ok from now on I will just label the fascists according to what has been established on this thread. If they want to deny that they are fine, but they will continue to be labeled as such.

	14-07-2003 03:08									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ok from now on I will just label the fascists according to what has been established on this thread. If they want to deny that they are fine, but they will continue to be labeled as such.

Oh -- when you join Apolyton, you be wise to purchase a high-quality flame suit to put on when the need for protection arises.

	14-07-2003 03:13									#200
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Oh -- when you join Apolyton, you be wise to purchase a high-quality flame suit to put on when the need for protection arises.

No, you need a flame-resistant full-body covering with Flame resistant underwear.

	14-07-2003 03:14									#201
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quote: You still can't clearly define the difference between authoritarianism and totalitarianism except to say that totalitarianism is relatively less democratic since Che and I have successfully argued that totalitarianism is not absolute. Since there have been no true totalitarian fascist govts, only relatively undemocratic fascist govts, it follows that fascism is a relative term that simply means authoritarian capitalist government.

Total Bull.

Totalitarianism means the government has centralized control over all facets of life. It crushes autonomous institutions.

Authoritarian is simply a dictatorial rule.

As GePap said:

And Facism goes beyond authoritarianism as [far] as politics is concerned.

Being authoritarian does not make one facist: Pinochet was authoritarian, but he did not do anything revolutionary

Therefore authoritarian does NOT equal Fascism, as I've been saying and GePap and I have proven. All authoritarians are not Fascists, even if the converse is true! Which is why it is silly to say that all Authoritarians are Fascist!

Mussolini and Hitler I'd argue were totalitarian Fascist governments. The state and party invaded all spheres of life. While capitalists had power, they had to become party leaders in order to keep that power (many of them did). The party ruled all. This isn't authoritarian... it goes beyond that. Totalitarianism isn't simply less democratic, it is a different beast.

You can't get Fascism without Totalitarianism... the whole system fails without it. Fascism requires the party to be in control of everything.

Furthermore, you still have to prove they were capitalists .

quote: End of argument.

You're conceeding? Good .

	14-07-2003 03:24									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Furthermore, you still have to prove they were capitalists .

Been done.

	14-07-2003 03:26									#203
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ZZZT... nope. Try again .

You failed horribly at proving they were capitalists by saying you don't have to have a relatively free market to be capitalist .

	14-07-2003 03:26									#204
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Certain left-wingers want a wide definition of fascism to be able to call certain right-wingers fascist.

Certain right-wingers want a wide definition of communism to be able to call certain left-wingers communist.

Pretty much sums it up.

They are both wrong, of course...but it's a common mistake (and I won't deny that I've been equally wrong in similar discussions).

The point is, it's always better to call things by their proper names (unless you just want to insult/ slander/attack people for a political purpose).

	14-07-2003 03:28									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Totalitarianism means the government has centralized control over all facets of life. It crushes autonomous institutions.

Arendt was a bit more nuanced than that.

	14-07-2003 03:29									#206
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quote: Arendt was a bit more nunanced than that.

It's a short definition. It's not comprehensive by any means.

	14-07-2003 03:30									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You failed horribly at proving they were capitalists by saying you don't have to have a relatively free market to be capitalist .

Idiot. That's not what I said. I gave you the definition from the Dictionary of Economics. Again, it states that capitalism does not require complete free markets.

	14-07-2003 03:32									#208
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quote: I gave you the definition from the Dictionary of Economics. Again, it states that capitalism does not require complete free markets.

Whoever said you need 'complete' free markets. A decently free market will do fine.

The dictionary definition is woefully inadequate. As GePap said defining a complex political (or economic) system in a few words is bound be inaccurate.

No one within their right mind would consider a country capitalist if didn't have at least a major part of its economy subject to the free market.

	14-07-2003 03:36									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The dictionary definition is woefully inadequate.

So says you. It's pointless to show you how economists define economic terms, because you refuse to learn economics. Everything is politics to you Imran. You could care less about economics, and that will keep you ignorant of the subject matter.

	14-07-2003 03:45									#210
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I think to be more correct we would say that the authoritarian government attempts to excerize control over everything. So far, they haven't yet been successful, accept maybe in Campodia and North Korea.