13-07-2003 22:18									#121
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Ah typical of the left... lies in order to try to make your point.

	13-07-2003 22:18									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You ass. I just made up the term Authoritarian Capitalism last night on this very thread. Stop pretending it's a real word. Look who's calling who a moron.

First of all, you too need to chill some.

Second: Kid, authoritarian and capitalism are both real terms: you took two real terms and mixed them together: that is not making up a word, but arguing for a system that would share the characteristics to make it fit into both.

And as a concept, authoritarian capitalism is very real.

	13-07-2003 22:19									#123
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* mrmitchell thinks about buying popcorn but notices the prices are outrageous so he just gets a drink

	13-07-2003 22:21									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ah typical of the left... lies in order to try to make your point.

HEY!

Don't make us catapult you from a submarine! (best I could come for a compleet opposite to chucking you from a heli into the ocean..tat's is a right-wing way)

	13-07-2003 22:21									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Stop pretending it's a real word. IT IS A REAL WORD, YOU UTTER WASTE OF SPACE! Go to google, type 'Authoritarian Capitalism'. The first link? "Singapore's Authoritarian Capitalism". http://www.thelockeinstitute.org/books/singapore.html

I don't know why I'm still trying to explain this to you. 'Authoritarian' and 'Capitalism' are two different words that you can put together. That doesn't mean that Authoritarian Capitalism is a type of goverment in the same sense that Democracy and Fascism are types of goverments.

	13-07-2003 22:24									#126
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And as a concept, authoritarian capitalism is very real.

I'm aware that it is a concept. It's the concept that we are talking about. I just don't see why we can't call governments that are both authoritarian and capitalist, fascist. Imran wants us to call them Authoritarian Capitalist, and I don't see the point.

	13-07-2003 22:25									#127
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Imran is not arguing that Authoritarian capitalism is a form of government, only thet Facism is not a from of authoritarian capitalism.

	13-07-2003 22:25									#128
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quote: Don't make us catapult you from a submarine!

Does the submarine have a screen door?

quote: 'Authoritarian' and 'Capitalism' are two different words that you can put together. That doesn't mean that Authoritarian Capitalism is a type of goverment in the same sense that Democracy and Fascism are types of goverments.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19950...aganda-way.html

Whereas liberalism and individual freedom found fertile ground in the West, Asian institutions grew along conservative and collectivist lines. So the West evolved liberal capitalism, and Asia has tilted toward authoritarian capitalism. That the Philippines, South Korea, Thailand, and Taiwan are moving toward multiparty politics is encouraging. However, Myanmar, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and Vietnam practice authoritarian capitalism that keeps ruling parties in power by preserving economic growth.

Authoritarianism is a form of government. Capitalism is an economic system. Join them together and you have a government that is Authoritarian and follows Capitalism... ie, Authoritarian Capitalism.

Btw... is Indonesia Fascist?

	13-07-2003 22:28									#129
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quote: Imran is not arguing that Authoritarian capitalism is a form of government, only thet Facism is not a from of authoritarian capitalism.

Yepper... I don't think Fascism is capitalist enough to qualify. When the government sets production limits and severly curtails the market, that ain't capitalism.

	13-07-2003 22:29									#130
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Imran is not arguing that Authoritarian capitalism is a form of government, only thet Facism is not a from of authoritarian capitalism.

I read this too fast. Ignore the post that was here.

	13-07-2003 22:30									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Don't make us catapult you from a submarine! Does the submarine have a screen door?

No, we don't subcontract from New Europe. Tyhe catapult is deck mounted, so on top of everything, you will get wet!

quote: I'm aware that it is a concept. It's the concept that we are talking about. I just don't see why we can't call governments that are both authoritarian and capitalist, fascist. Imran wants us to call them Authoritarian Capitalist, and I don't see the point.

Becuase facism is a distinct ideology which does not support trade liberalism, which is a cornerstone of capitalism. And Facism goes beyond authoritarianism as fgar as politics is concerned. I would not call Pinochet a facist regime, like Imran did, and the facism of Franco is questionable, since his regime was not that revolutionary, and fascism is a revolutionary ideology.

	13-07-2003 22:34									#132
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GePap: I think Pinochet is very borderline. He could either way for me. He did liberalize the economy somewhat, but also kept some strict controls over certain aspects of it.

Franco is more so, but he isn't the ideal, because he was more reactionary than, say, a Mussolini.

quote: Tyhe catapult is deck mounted, so on top of everything, you will get wet!

	13-07-2003 22:34									#133
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Becuase facism is a distinct ideology which does not support trade liberalism, which is a cornerstone of capitalism. And Facism goes beyond authoritarianism as fgar as politics is concerned. I would not call Pinochet a facist regime, like Imran did, and the facism of Franco is questionable, since his regime was not that revolutionary, and fascism is a revolutionary ideology.

Capitalism does not require trade liberalisation. It only requires the private ownership of capital. I'm not going to give you the dictionary definition, but I will tell you that it explicity states this.

	13-07-2003 22:40									#134
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As a political ideology, capitalism is incidental to Facism: the first facist manifesto caled for things like old age pensions for all, lots of goernment porgrams, so forth and so on.

Being authoritarian does not make one facist: Pinochet was authoritarian, but he did not do anything revolutionary (except perahps open up economically...) The notion of being reactionary is one of the things that for me distinguishes one from being a facist: while much of the "Volk" talk gives the impression that the system yearns to "return" to some ancient wonderland, its methods are extreme and revolutionary, giving you a very different end form whatever fantasy past some people may yearn for.

quote: Capitalism does not require trade liberalisation. It only requires the private ownership of capital.

Hmmm? You can have private ownership of capital in a social democratic system.

	13-07-2003 22:51									#135
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He, on the "definition" of capitalism from distinct viewpoints:

Marxist:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/sg...ism_defined.htm

Objectivist:

http://solohq.com/Objectivism101/Po...apitalism.shtml

Calvinist!

http://www.visi.com/~contra_m/pc/19...definition.html

	13-07-2003 22:52									#136
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quote: Originally posted by GePap As a political ideology, capitalism is incidental to Facism: the first facist manifesto caled for things like old age pensions for all, lots of goernment porgrams, so forth and so on. Being authoritarian does not make one facist: Pinochet was authoritarian, but he did not do anything revolutionary (except perahps open up economically...) The notion of being reactionary is one of the things that for me distinguishes one from being a facist: while much of the "Volk" talk gives the impression that the system yearns to "return" to some ancient wonderland, its methods are extreme and revolutionary, giving you a very different end form whatever fantasy past some people may yearn for.

The dictionary definition of fascism doesn't say anything about revolution. Like I was telling Imran, you can use the strict definition of fascism, but you can also use it as a relative term. People do in fact use it in that way. I don't think that will stop either.

quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: Capitalism does not require trade liberalisation. It only requires the private ownership of capital. Hmmm? You can have private ownership of capital in a social democratic system.

Socialism is a very broad term. It most often means the use of resources to benefit the people. Communism is more specific.

	13-07-2003 22:52									#137
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Damn Calvanists . Oh that Protestant Work Ethic indeed .

	13-07-2003 22:56									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The dictionary definition of fascism doesn't say anything about revolution. Like I was telling Imran, you can use the strict definition of fascism, but you can also use it as a relative term. People do in fact use it in that way. I don't think that will stop either.

The dictionary defintion of a complex ideology is bound to be crap, just like the definition of marxism or communism are likely to be incomplete. I base my critique on having read some of the seminal works of facism. (It is always fun walking through San Fran> wth Hitler in my bag)

	13-07-2003 22:58									#139
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quote: It is always fun walking through San Fran> wth Hitler in my bag

Left without any bruises?

	13-07-2003 23:08									#140
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Now on to fascism!

A lot of the definitions I found are, or seem to be Marxist based, which I consider of tract.

This to me is the most honest one (that the person seems to have read fascists, which would be a nice thing to do before you go to define what they think, no?)

http://www.publiceye.org/eyes/whatfasc.html

Here is a longer one,I don;t like it as much, but it remains much more objective and looks at sources:

http://www.remember.org/hist.root.what.html

He he, just to compare, and utterly idiotic "anti-Bush" one:

http://www.zeppscommentaries.com/Politics/fascism.htm

And a more common, but still silly in my view, one:

http://www.couplescompany.com/Featu.../Structure3.htm

Oh, and the Maoist:

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/w...fascismdef.html

Enjoy.

	13-07-2003 23:09									#141
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quote: Originally posted by GePap He, on the "definition" of capitalism from distinct viewpoints: Marxist: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/sg...ism_defined.htm Objectivist: http://solohq.com/Objectivism101/Po...apitalism.shtml Calvinist! http://www.visi.com/~contra_m/pc/19...definition.html

OK, here's the definition from the Oxford Dictionary of Economics.

capitalism The economic system based on private property and private enterprize..... Capitalism does not imply complete laissez-faire....

I guess if the govt had complete control over the economy that that would not be capitalsim even if ownership was private, but that would have to mean that decision making was completely centralized. The definition of fascism doesn't include any requirement for complete central planning though. In fact I'm sure that economic decision making in Italy and Germany were somewhat decentralized.

	13-07-2003 23:10									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It is always fun walking through San Fran> wth Hitler in my bag Left without any bruises?

The publishers are very nice, they make the book solid black, with the tiule and authoer in red, in small letters. And I did not advertise that it was there.

	13-07-2003 23:11									#143
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The dictionary defintion of a complex ideology is bound to be crap, just like the definition of marxism or communism are likely to be incomplete. I base my critique on having read some of the seminal works of facism. (It is always fun walking through San Fran> wth Hitler in my bag)

But I'm not saying that Singapore is just like Nazi Germany just because I call them fascist. There are all kinds of democracies and yet we call them all democracies regardless of their diferences.

	13-07-2003 23:12									#144
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quote: The publishers are very nice, they make the book solid black, with the tiule and authoer in red, in small letters.

Ah, I've seen that book in the bookstores! That is definetly a book to buy at Amazon.com for me... it would be waaay too wierd to buy it at a bookstore .

quote: capitalism The economic system based on private property and private enterprize..... Capitalism does not imply complete laissez-faire.....

Sounds like a silly defintion. Why? Because worker democracy (where the workers own the means of production, but there still remains private property and enterprise) would technically be capitalism, even though it is the communists that advocate it.

	13-07-2003 23:13									#145
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Why is Speer sporting a Maoist group's logo?

	13-07-2003 23:16									#146
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Now on to fascism! A lot of the definitions I found are, or seem to be Marxist based, which I consider of tract. This to me is the most honest one (that the person seems to have read fascists, which would be a nice thing to do before you go to define what they think, no?) http://www.publiceye.org/eyes/whatfasc.html

Here's a quote from this one.

quote: It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state.

See 'usually though a totalitarian state.' Not always.

	13-07-2003 23:19									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Sounds like a silly defintion. Why? Because worker democracy (where the workers own the means of production, but there still remains private property and enterprise) would technically be capitalism, even though it is the communists that advocate it.

That's ridiculous. You need capitalists to have capitalism. What you are talking about is communism with decentralized planning.

	13-07-2003 23:22									#148
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quote: See 'usually though a totalitarian state.' Not always.

The onus of proof is on you to show a Fascist state that has NOT been totalitarian.

quote: That's ridiculous. You need capitalists to have capitalism. What you are talking about is communism with decentralized planning.

The definition you quoted said private property and private enterprise. In a Worker Democracy there is both. Under the definition you quoted, it is capitalism.

	13-07-2003 23:30									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: See 'usually though a totalitarian state.' Not always. The onus of proof is on you to show a Fascist state that has NOT been totalitarian.

If I show that all decisions were not made by the leader in one fascist state will you bow down and kiss my feet?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: That's ridiculous. You need capitalists to have capitalism. What you are talking about is communism with decentralized planning. The definition you quoted said private property and private enterprise. In a Worker Democracy there is both. Under the definition you quoted, it is capitalism.

There's no private ownership or enterprize. There's community ownership and enterprize.

	13-07-2003 23:34									#150
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In both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, the power of the government was hardly absolute. When their corporate masters rang, the Nazis came running. Whatever they wanted, the Nazis gave them. Labor troubles, crush the labor unions and replace them with subservient Nazi unions. Not enough of a market, fat government contracts to build the autobahn, and rearm the country. Need new colonies, take Eastern Europe. need cheap labor, free Jewish slaves.

Imagine a country ruled directly by the Mafia and drug gangs and you have an idea what fascism was like. Much like the USSR was basically a country run by the old Teamsters.