13-07-2003 23:42									#151
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quote: If I show that all decisions were not made by the leader in one fascist state will you bow down and kiss my feet?

The leader is the ultimate power. If he delegates power it does not mean that the government isn't totalitarian, because it all comes back to him.

quote: There's no private ownership or enterprize. There's community ownership and enterprize.

It isn't community ownership, because the community doesn't own the factory, the workers do. Worker ownership is hardly different from private ownership. There have been many examples of people coming together to run a business (just about all lawfirms for one). That STILL means it is private company, just owned by many people.

quote: When their corporate masters rang, the Nazis came running. Whatever they wanted, the Nazis gave them. Labor troubles, crush the labor unions and replace them with subservient Nazi unions. Not enough of a market, fat government contracts to build the autobahn, and rearm the country. Need new colonies, take Eastern Europe. need cheap labor, free Jewish slaves.

All of that stuff was part of the Fascist platform... so I don't get where the idea of the 'corporate masters' called the Fascists went running. Crushing the labor unions is one of the top things on a Fascist agenda. Socialist labor unions divide the country by class warfare, so they must be crushed and replaced by Nazi unions that work for unity of the state.

The Autobahn and military buildup are all consistant with Fascist ideology. The autobahn is a public project for the benefit of the people. And Fascism loves military buildup... the state must be strong.

	13-07-2003 23:54									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui All of that stuff was part of the Fascist platform... so I don't get where the idea of the 'corporate masters' called the Fascists went running. Crushing the labor unions is one of the top things on a Fascist agenda. Socialist labor unions divide the country by class warfare, so they must be crushed and replaced by Nazi unions that work for unity of the state. The Autobahn and military buildup are all consistant with Fascist ideology. The autobahn is a public project for the benefit of the people. And Fascism loves military buildup... the state must be strong.

The facsists also said they would crush the capitalists, which they never did. They never even tried to do it. Those aspects of fascist rhetoric (ideology is too strong a word for the hodgepodge beliefs) that suited their corporate masters they kept. Those that threatened the capitalist they disposed of . . . with prejudice.

The Stormtroopers very much believed the anti-capitalist part of Nazi rhetoric, and once the left was crushed, they began agitating for the Nazi "revolution" to crush the capitalists and establish the perfect fascist society. It was the SA who was crushed instead. Ein volk, ein reich, ein furher only applied to the little people, not the owners of Germany. It wasn't until the Nazis began losing the war that they began excersizing total control over production, and only because the war necessitated it. Even then, they still ensure that the capitalists made plenty of profit, when that money surely could have been put to better use for the war effort. But then, even the US did that.

	13-07-2003 23:57									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If I show that all decisions were not made by the leader in one fascist state will you bow down and kiss my feet? The leader is the ultimate power. If he delegates power it does not mean that the government isn't totalitarian, because it all comes back to him.

Now you're on the slippery slope. See you want to think only in absolute terms, and that's not reality. That's your fantasy world.

If decision making is decentralized and there is private ownership of capital then that is by definition Capitalism by your own admission.

Totalitarianism like fascism is a relative term. It means that the govt has the power to make any decision, but it doesn't mean that the govt actually makes any decision. The only difference between authoritarian govt and totalitarian govt is the relative amount of decisions that the govt makes. In both govts the govt has the power to make any decision that it wants.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: There's no private ownership or enterprize. There's community ownership and enterprize. It isn't community ownership, because the community doesn't own the factory, the workers do. Worker ownership is hardly different from private ownership. There have been many examples of people coming together to run a business (just about all lawfirms for one). That STILL means it is private company, just owned by many people.

Get your dictionary. Private means personal. Personal means individual.

	13-07-2003 23:59									#154
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why is Speer sporting a Maoist group's logo?

He should really read the definitions of fascism, see which one he likes.

quote: quote: It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state. See 'usually though a totalitarian state.' Not always.

Kid, what matters is the aim: no capitalisst seeks to subordinate all spheres while working to create a single organic community. The aims are inherently totalitarian, even if the means are not always totalitarian.

Hey Che, did you read any of the defintions? (secially the top two?)

	14-07-2003 00:05									#155
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Nope, didn't. Don't really wanna read too much about fascism or murder or anything like that now. I've spent far too much time the last month reading about murder and I can't stand it anymore.

	14-07-2003 00:08									#156
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Why must all conversations on this board inevitably turn to Jesus or Nazis?

	14-07-2003 00:18									#157
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quote: The facsists also said they would crush the capitalists, which they never did.

Well seeing as how they were backed by some capitalists, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Theories aren't always perfect, as you well know che. Hitler sacrificed theory for survival.

quote: Get your dictionary. Private means personal. Personal means individual.

So, let's get this straight. In your opinion private property means individual property and same for enterprise?

So does that mean that you consider corporations to NOT be private property or enterprise?

	14-07-2003 00:22									#158
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Kid, what matters is the aim: no capitalisst seeks to subordinate all spheres while working to create a single organic community. The aims are inherently totalitarian, even if the means are not always totalitarian.

I disagree. Aim to me is insignificant. The reality of the system is what is significant.

	14-07-2003 00:22									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Why must all conversations on this board inevitably turn to Jesus or Nazis?

Because there were no Jesus nazis.

	14-07-2003 00:26									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Get your dictionary. Private means personal. Personal means individual. So, let's get this straight. In your opinion private property means individual property and same for enterprise? So does that mean that you consider corporations to NOT be private property or enterprise?

Corporations are private property. They can be owned by one individual or individuals can be part owners of the corporation. That's different than the 'workers' owning the business unless the workers have individual private ownership of the business. On that account it would be capitalism. Odin and others have never specified whether workers would be able to speculate with the ownership of such a business so I can't really comment for them.

	14-07-2003 00:30									#161
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quote: Corporations are private property. They can be owned by one individual or individuals can be part owners of the corporation. That's different than the 'workers' owning the business unless the workers have individual private ownership of the business.

Workers Democracy means that ALL workers in the company have individual private ownership of a part of the company... this is why they can vote on things such as production and prices, because they own a certain part of the company. The ownership of the company is equally divided among all workers.

Basically they are all own shares in the business.. Workers Democracy transfers the shares from people who don't work in the company to those that do.

	14-07-2003 00:34									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Corporations are private property. They can be owned by one individual or individuals can be part owners of the corporation. That's different than the 'workers' owning the business unless the workers have individual private ownership of the business. Workers Democracy means that ALL workers in the company have individual private ownership of a part of the company... this is why they can vote on things such as production and prices, because they own a certain part of the company. The ownership of the company is equally divided among all workers. Basically they are all own shares in the business.. Workers Democracy transfers the shares from people who don't work in the company to those that do.

Well can they sell their shares and somehow game the system to get a bigger personal stake, or do they just have an equal say in the production.

	14-07-2003 00:35									#163
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quote: Well can they sell their shares and somehow game the system to get a bigger personal stake, or do they just have an equal say in the production.

They just have an equal share in production, I believe. The shares are non-transferable, but it is still individual ownership of a part of the company.

I think you are trying to split hairs because you've been caught in a corner .

	14-07-2003 00:43									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Well can they sell their shares and somehow game the system to get a bigger personal stake, or do they just have an equal say in the production. They just have an equal share in production, I believe. The shares are non-transferable, but it is still individual ownership of a part of the company. I think you are trying to split hairs because you've been caught in a corner .

If it's their private property then they should be able to sell it. You don't privately own govt property but you have a say in how it is used. If you could sell your share, and you can't of course (that's what makes it community property), that would make it private property. I think. I don't really know what your point is. Why should I be arguing about this?

	14-07-2003 01:03									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If it were you were completely unaware of it last night. Now you know all about it, huh? Your pitifull.

I wonder whose DL this is?

play that DL music

	14-07-2003 01:06									#166
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quote: If it's their private property then they should be able to sell it.

Can you sell your body into total slavery? Is it not your own private property?

There are definetly some property, which is private property, but not alienable.

	14-07-2003 01:14									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If it's their private property then they should be able to sell it. Can you sell your body into total slavery? Is it not your own private property? There are definetly some property, which is private property, but not alienable.

I'm not interested in this argument. You've found a grey area. I'm satisfied with just the understanding that it is a grey area. I do think that it depends on the outcomes though. If the outcomes are unequal because some people end up owning more property then that is capitalism. But then again I think that capitalism has to entail the exploitation of workers through the mechanisms of profit, interest and rent so there is a grey area.

	14-07-2003 01:19									#168
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Calling a govt or an individual fascist doesn't mean that it's type of govt is fascism. Fascist means to have characteristics of fascism. So if a government allows the private ownership of capital and is authoritarian then it has SOME characteristics of fascism and in that sense it is fascist. Similarly when Fez says that the govt should throw all the communists out of helocopters he is being fascist, and so we call him fascist. He supports a system that has the same characteristics as fascism.

	14-07-2003 01:22									#169
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quote: Calling a govt or an individual fascist doesn't mean that it's type of govt is fascism. Fascist means to have characteristics of fascism. So if a government allows the private ownership of capital and is authoritarian then it has SOME characteristics of fascism and in that sense it is fascist.

Does this mean I can call the US communist since it has SOME characteristics of a communist state? After all in the Communist Manifesto, Marx lays out 10 things he wants done, the US has done at least half of them, IIRC (such as minimum wage, welfare, etc).

	14-07-2003 01:25									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Calling a govt or an individual fascist doesn't mean that it's type of govt is fascism. Fascist means to have characteristics of fascism. So if a government allows the private ownership of capital and is authoritarian then it has SOME characteristics of fascism and in that sense it is fascist. Does this mean I can call the US communist since it has SOME characteristics of a communist state? After all in the Communist Manifesto, Marx lays out 10 things he wants done, the US has done at least half of them, IIRC (such as minimum wage, welfare, etc).

I thought you read Marx. Where does Marx argue for a minimum wage? Christ what am I saying. Marx was against wages period. You're talking out of your ass.

	14-07-2003 01:30									#171
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Marx wasn't an idiot. He knew that you didn't just go from capitalism to socialism in a heartbeat (even if he wanted revolution). He wanted a minimum living wage in the meantime so the workers wouldn't live in **** until the Revolution came (even though them living in **** would lead to a quicker revolution... it's a tough dilemma).

	14-07-2003 01:33									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Marx wasn't an idiot. He knew that you didn't just go from capitalism to socialism in a heartbeat (even if he wanted revolution). He wanted a minimum living wage in the meantime so the workers wouldn't live in **** until the Revolution came (even though them living in **** would lead to a quicker revolution... it's a tough dilemma).

That is complete nonsense. He predicted subsistence wages whould be a permanent aspect of capitalism. Back then they had wage ceilings. It was the liberals who argued that these wage ceilings should be removed. Marx said nothing about it.

	14-07-2003 01:37									#173
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From the Weekly Worker:

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/385/letters.html

quote: The demand for a minimum wage can have virtue, in Marx’s approach, only to the extent that it comes organically out of the labour movement itself, and serves as a lever to expand workers’ struggles based on a bourgeois definition of ‘needs’ (fair wages) into a more general class-against-class form and thus towards a struggle for higher working class needs (solidarity, workers’ liberty).

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=minimum%20wage

quote: In The Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx describes the minimum wage as "that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely requisite to keep the laborer in bare existence as a laborer".

Marx didn't directly call what we call it the 'minimum wage'. That term he reserved for something else. But he called it a living wage (IIRC) for the workers that turned in our 'minimum wage'.

	14-07-2003 01:40									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Marx didn't directly call it the 'minimum wage'. That term he reserved for something else. But he called on a 'living wage' for the workers that turned in our 'minimum wage'.

He was talking about the subsistance wage. That is the wage that is required for the workers to maintain a living. That is something completely different from advocating that the govt should maintain a certain wage floor. He agreed with the liberals that the subsistance wage would be maintained through the free market.

It was the Progressive movement that gave us the minimum wage. You are confusing that with the Communist movement.

	14-07-2003 01:41									#175
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Furthermore the US has incorporated free education and progressive taxation, both with Marx has called for.

I guess then, I can call the US communist because it has SOME communist aspects.

	14-07-2003 01:43									#176
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quote: That is something completely different from advocating that the govt should maintain a certain wage floor.

I'm not saying that our minimum wage is the same as his. Marx wished the labor unions (or industrial armies, if you wish) to push for a wage floor, so that all of its members would earn what they needed.

	14-07-2003 01:46									#177
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While this man is not a Marxist, he is a Professor of Economics and makes an interesting point:

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues...on/worland.html

quote: The sharpest argument ever offered to justify the minimum wage was provided by Karl Marx in Das Kapital. Using the power conveyed by his ownership of the means of production, Marx said, the capitalist compels the worker to produce an amount that exceeds what he is paid in wages. The “surplus value” thus generated is the source of the capitalist’s profit. This being the case, legislation that shifts the balance of power from capitalist to worker is one way to expropriate the expropriators. Workers of the world, unite—and vote for the party that promises to increase the minimum wage.

	14-07-2003 01:49									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui While this man is not a Marxist, he is a Professor of Economics and makes an interesting point: http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues...on/worland.html quote: The sharpest argument ever offered to justify the minimum wage was provided by Karl Marx in Das Kapital. Using the power conveyed by his ownership of the means of production, Marx said, the capitalist compels the worker to produce an amount that exceeds what he is paid in wages. The “surplus value” thus generated is the source of the capitalist’s profit. This being the case, legislation that shifts the balance of power from capitalist to worker is one way to expropriate the expropriators. Workers of the world, unite—and vote for the party that promises to increase the minimum wage.

And that is the argument that progressives use. That doesn't mean that Marx was a Progressive. He was a communist. The difference is that he didn't believe that workers could improve their lot within the capitalist system, and that the system should be overthrown. Progressives don't believe that the system can or will be overthrown.

	14-07-2003 01:51									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Furthermore the US has incorporated free education and progressive taxation, both with Marx has called for. I guess then, I can call the US communist because it has SOME communist aspects.

He predicted that those would be aspects of a communist system, not a capitalist system. Achieving those things through the capitalist system is progressivism, not communism.

	14-07-2003 01:52									#180
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Do not some Communists agree with Progressives that the minimum wage should be raised? I can guarentee you that many Communists on this board would say that. I don't think there would be one that wouldn't howl if someone proposed taking it away!