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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I seriously doubt that. |
Doubt it all you like, but the number of gays hounded out of the military increased dramatically under Clinton's watch.
Sava, I suggest you read up on the effect of the Progressive Party and other third parties in the early part of the 20th Century. You might find their effect on politics in the U.S. enlightening. The .$25 version is that they pulled American politics left, since the Dems had to go left in order to protect their flank and the Republicans went left to try and pick up the middle ground.
In our current political climate, when had no need to protect their left flank, they could go as far to the right as they liked, in some cases, going further to the right than Repulbicans (note Leiberman's campaign against the less conservative Republican incumbent). The only thing to stop the Democrats from continuing their imitation of the Republican Party is the Green Party.
Last edited by chegitz guevara on 20-07-2003 at 21:47
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
I would get an instant lift if Bush or any of the neocons were assasinated. As far as I'm concerned they are enemies of humanity, and it's their just deserve. |
and on the same token, I would think the same for you and other communists. You are the enemies of humanity, not us. You are the enemies of democracy, not us.
Boris:
You are quite mistaken... you see.. my uncle served in Vietnam in the United States military and my dad served in the United States Government. So I very well can call the US troops as ¨our boys¨.
You are dubiously claiming otherwise.
quote:
They aren't yours, though, as you aren't American. When it's your countrymen who are off somewhere getting killed, then you can talk about it. Until then, kindly shut up. Thanks. |
I technically still consider myself Spanish. Nonetheless, 900 Spanish troops are in Iraq. I would personally like to see that number at 5,000.
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:29
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I'd like to see Bush, Cheney, and all involved with dragging America into this unjust war, on trial for treason... and if found guilty, sentenced to the penalty of death. If I were to rob $80 bucks from a 7-11, and shoot the clerk, I'd probably get the DP in a mouth-breathing state like Texas. But yet, I kill thousands of innocents, hundreds of American soldiers, and steal billions; the Republican party would be naming aircraft carriers after me.
che - I know about the progressive party... and if a popular candidate like Teddy Roosevelt can't even get a quarter of the electoral votes, then I hold out no hope for some unknown. In order to change the system, you must first take control of power from within the system... and it's a two-party system. If the early 1900's is the most recent instance you can present where a third party candidate had a chance in hell, then that shows how pathetic and wasteful supporting such a cause is.
Kidicious - Apathetic dissidents who don't vote hurt the system by not participating in it. In America, we live by the rule of law. There are protocols to changing things. We don't have petty coups and violent revolutions when things go south... we have elections. And the people that don't participate have no right whatsoever to complain about the results of their own misguided apathy. Guynemer, that goes for you, too. Sure, 2 million people sat at home with their thumbs up their asses... but those people don't exist as far as the democratic process goes. And as long as those people sit at home, politicians won't give a sh1t about their problems, opinions, or concerns.
When a guy like Rupert Murdoch wants things done, do you think he organizes a mass-protest? Do you think he sulks at home saying to himself, "well nobody cares about what I want so I won't vote" ? No! He writes a check, makes some calls, AND WORKS WITHIN THE SYSTEM TO GET SH!T DONE! The day protesting, apathy, and foolish idealism works, is the day corporate fat-cats start walking the streets carrying signs, "Repeal Dividend Taxes!", "De-Regulate **insertIndustryHere**".
The problem with some progressives is that they just don't get it. 
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
che - I know about the progressive party... and if a popular candidate like Teddy Roosevelt can't even get a quarter of the electoral votes, then I hold out no hope for some unknown. In order to change the system, you must first take control of power from within the system... and it's a two-party system. If the early 1900's is the most recent instance you can present where a third party candidate had a chance in hell, then that shows how pathetic and wasteful supporting such a cause is. |
Then you need to go back to the books. The Progressive Party and the Populist Party may not have ever acheived much in terms of electoral victories, but they changed American poltics very much for the better. Both the Dem's and Republicans had to enact progressive policies in order to keep from losing to them. And then there's the effect of the Communist Party in the 30s.
When there is no alternative to the corporate partioes, they have no incentive to pay attention to anything but their corporate masters. You can talk all you want about taking power from within the system, but look at what that has done? What are the results? Hmm, politics has drifted ever more to the corporations and the right. Guess that must not work. It never has and it never will. The system is designed to take people like that and make them work for it, not the other way around.
The only reason the Dem's are paying any attention at all to their party base this time around is because of the Greens. Without the Greens, all we'd have in the race are more coma inducing corporate whores like Lieberman. In a few years, you'd have Democrat's running to the right of Bush while the Republicans would be thinking that perhaps Hitler was a little soft.
The politics of the lesser evil has only ever led to greater evil. If no one stands for the politics of good, you'll never get good politics.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
When a guy like Rupert Murdoch wants things done, do you think he organizes a mass-protest? Do you think he sulks at home saying to himself, "well nobody cares about what I want so I won't vote" ? No! He writes a check, makes some calls, AND WORKS WITHIN THE SYSTEM TO GET SH!T DONE! The day protesting, apathy, and foolish idealism works, is the day corporate fat-cats start walking the streets carrying signs, "Repeal Dividend Taxes!", "De-Regulate **insertIndustryHere**".
The problem with some progressives is that they just don't get it. |
Yeah, that really worked during the Clinton years.  Let's see, oh yeah, no, it didn't. The reason it works for the corporations is because it's designed to work for them. We don't have the money to right checks. The progressive organizations sold themselves out, refusing to criticize Clinton for fear of losing access. What good is access when all they do is listen. The only way you can make them act on what you want is to take away from them the one thing you have, your vote.
When you vote for the Democrats no matter what, you're telling them they can do anything and it won't cost them. If you stop voting altogether, they don't care. If you vote Republican in protest (and some do), then they think the answer is to move to the right. Only by voting for what you want, will you get the parties to address what you want.
As to the uselessness of protesting: it got women the vote, it got Black people the vote and an end to desgregation, it got gay people out of the closet, it defended the right to abortion, it ended the Vietnam war, it stopped the invasion of Nicaragua, it got us the minimum wage, legal unions, and social security. In Britain, protests have brought down the government.
Aparently it's not very useless. But they've always been ridiculed as usless and they always started small. In 1965, only a handful of people protested the Vietnam War. And no one cared. Five years later the majority of the country was against the war and millions were protesting in the streets. You think that had no impact on politics? It's harder, but you have to work with the weapons you have.
We don't have the weapons the right has. We have to use people power.
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Sava no offense, but I'd also like to see you go on trial for treason for wishing death to the adminstration. |
Unfortunately for you, that's not what I did. I only wished they would be taken to trial for their alleged crimes... and if guilty, punished accordingly. There is nothing illegal or wrong about my statements. Sorry, America isn't a police state, no matter how much you want to see your opposition smoldering in a pit.
quote:
Then you need to go back to the books. The Progressive Party and the Populist Party may not have ever acheived much in terms of electoral victories, but they changed American poltics very much for the better. Both the Dem's and Republicans had to enact progressive policies in order to keep from losing to them. And then there's the effect of the Communist Party in the 30s. |
Yeah, I've read the history. After the futility of their efforts in attempting to promote a third party, the progressive elements JOINED the other two parties and worked from within the system to force change.
I apologize about the protest part... you're right... but again, you have to ask yourself... do corporate fat cats protest? Who in Washington has the biggest voice? Corporations and special interests. Why? Because they participate in the process. Sure, money is involved... but if PEOPLE got with the program... volunteered for the DNC, ran for local offices, told their congressional representatives how they felt... THEN they could change things. Apathy never changed anything. And history has proven TIME AND TIME again that third-parties don't work.
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20-07-2003 08:14
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