Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Was Ronald Reagon that bad of a president?
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Rate Ronald Reagan as president (1 the lowest, 10 the highest) (Time out:0 days after 22-07-2003, 02:33)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
banana- he was a terrible actor
View Results [Edit Poll (moderators only)]
Author
Thread   
Pages (7): [ 1   2   3   4   5   6     >> ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 08:37
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#61 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

Fez, The Cato Institute is a hell-hole of crap (=Supply side) economists, you are full of it Fez. In my school's Economics textbook it says that the "Misery Index" (I can't remember it's technical name) was at an all-time high under Reagan. So, one again, You have no evidence, YOU HAVE NOTHING!!!

It was definatly Reagan's fault with S&L. he gave in to the comercial bank lobby who were complaining to him, and of course he allways sided with Big Business and made S&Ls have to have higher interst rates on loans, screwing the poor people.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 08:53 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#62 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

Actually the idiot you are, you fail to realize that the misery index wasn't used in the 80s. It was used by President Carter to defeat President Ford in the 1977 elections. The misery index was the inflation and unemployment added together, and it was at an all time high in 1979. Unemployment fell by half by 1985, and inflation was reduced. You are a damned idiot to ignore the evidence I have.

And you a stooge to ignore the chart I provided showing real income increases in the income brackets of all classes.

Not only are you young, you apparently don't have a clue.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 08:59
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#63 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

Fez, shut up.

People *might* (might, because you have too much of a reputation) actually take you seriously if you didn't spend at least half of every post insulting people.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:04 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#64 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

I was thrown a bunch of insults by a 17 year old.. so what do you expect me to do?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#65 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

Ignore the insults and address the arguments.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:06
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#66 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
Fez, shut up.

People *might* (might, because you have too much of a reputation) actually take you seriously if you didn't spend at least half of every post insulting people.


Thanks Sky. At least your not a Fez Despenser.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:12 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#67 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
Ignore the insults and address the arguments.


Very well.

Odin, don't act hypocritical. You know very well you can't win in this argument. Go back to the school books.. what are you in the 11th grade?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#68 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!



Are you determined to do exactly the opposite of what I suggest?

EDIT: oh, and btw, I'm a rising 10th grader... age doesn't necessarily correspond to maturity or intelligence

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:18 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#69 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by skywalker


Are you determined to do exactly the opposite of what I suggest?

EDIT: oh, and btw, I'm a rising 10th grader... age doesn't necessarily correspond to maturity or intelligence


Hey, hey, hey, I didn't use any four letter words that get censored here.

10th grader? LOL... just a little sophmore...

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:22
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#70 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Still, saying "you're wrong" is not an argument, it's a delaying tactic while you do a google search You need to provide solid reasons why your argument is correct. There are two ways you can do that. First, start from a whole slew of evidence and point out a pattern (induction), second, take a little evidence and step by step build a case for your side (deduction).

cinch is offline cinch
Chieftain
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jul 2002
time: 22:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#71 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

I gave him a 2, mostly because trickle-down economics doesn't work, and because he killed Keynesian theory in America.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#72 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

Listen Fez, I take my arguments from what I have seen in my life. Your opinions would be like mine too if you grew up in working class rural Minesota instead of upper-middle class Spain.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:25 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#73 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
Still, saying "you're wrong" is not an argument, it's a delaying tactic while you do a google search You need to provide solid reasons why your argument is correct. There are two ways you can do that. First, start from a whole slew of evidence and point out a pattern (induction), second, take a little evidence and step by step build a case for your side (deduction).


I cite Cato, that is enough. The policy analysis has about twenty charts on it...

Thank you and have a nice day.

Soph-boy... get this right... I am more intelligent than you in this area. Don't try to outwit somebody older than you.

***

Economic Growth. The average annual growth rate of real gross domestic product (GDP) from 1981 to 1989 was 3.2 percent per year, compared with 2.8 percent from 1974 to 1981 and 2.1 percent from 1989 to 1995. The 3.2 percent growth rate for the Reagan years includes the recession of the early 1980s, which was a side effect of reversing Carter's high-inflation policies, and the seven expansion years, 1983-89. During the economic expansion alone, the economy grew by a robust annual rate of 3.8 percent. By the end of the Reagan years, the American economy was almost one-third larger than it was when they began. [13] Figure 1 shows the economic growth rate by president since World War II. That rate was higher in the 1980s than in the 1950s and 1970s but was substantially lower than the rapid economic growth rate of more than 4 percent per year in the 1960s. The Kennedy income tax rate cuts of 30 percent that were enacted in 1964 generated several years of 5 percent annual real growth.

Economic Growth per Working-Age Adult. When we adjust the economic growth rates to take account of demographic changes, we find that the expansion in the Reagan years looks even better and that the 1970s' performance looks worse. GDP growth per adult aged 20-64 in the Reagan years grew twice as rapidly, on average, as it did in the pre- and post-Reagan years.

Median Household Incomes. Real median household income rose by $4,000 in the Reagan years--from $37,868 in 1981 to $42,049 in 1989, as shown in Figure 2. This improvement was a stark reversal of the income trends in the late 1970s and the 1990s: median family income was unchanged in the eight pre-Reagan years, and incomes have fallen by $1,438 in the anti-supply-side 1990s, following the 1990 and 1993 tax hikes. [14] Most of the declines in take-home pay occurred on George Bush's watch. Under Bill Clinton's tenure, there has been zero income growth in median household income.

Employment. From 1981 through 1989 the U.S. economy produced 17 million new jobs, or roughly 2 million new jobs each year. Contrary to the Clinton administration's claims of vast job gains in the 1990s, the United States has averaged only 1.3 million new jobs per year in the post-Reagan years. The labor force United States has averaged only 1.3 million new jobs expanded by 1.7 percent per year between 1981 and 1989, but by just 1.2 percent per year between 1990 and 1995. [15]

Hours Worked. Table 1 confirms that hours worked per adult aged 20-64 grew much faster in the 1980s than in the pre -or post-Reagan years.

Unemployment Rate. When Reagan took office in 1981, the unemployment rate was 7.6 percent. In the recession of 1981-82, that rate peaked at 9.7 percent, but it fell continuously for the next seven years. When Reagan left office, the unemployment rate was 5.5 percent. This reduction in joblessness was a clear triumph of the Reagan program. Figure 3 shows that in the pre-Reagan years, the unemployment rate trended upward; in the Reagan years, the unemployment rate trended downward; and in the post-Reagan years, the unemployment rate has fluctuated up and down but today remains virtually unchanged from the 1989 rate.

Productivity. For real wages to rise, productivity must rise. Over the past 30 years there has been a secular downward trend in U.S. productivity growth. Under Reagan, productivity grew at a 1.5 percent annual rate, as shown in Figure 4. This was lower than in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s but much higher than in the post-Reagan years. Under Clinton, productivity has increased at an annual rate of just 0.3 percent per year--the worst presidential performance since that of Herbert Hoover.

Inflation. The central economic evil that Ronald Reagan inherited in 1981 from Jimmy Carter was three years of double-digit inflation. In 1980 the consumer price index (CPI) rose to 13.5 percent. By Reagan's second year in office, the inflation rate fell by more than half to 6.2 percent. In 1988, Reagan's last year in office, the CPI had fallen to 4.1 percent. Figure 5 shows the inflation and interest rate trend.

Interest Rates. In 1980 the interest rate on a 30-year mortgage was 15 percent; this rate rose to its all-time peak of 18.9 percent in 1981. The prime rate steadily fell over the subsequent six years to a low of 8.2 percent in 1987 as the inflationary expectation component of interest rates fell sharply. The prime rate hit its 20-year low in 1993 at 6.0 percent. The Treasury Bill rate also fell dramatically in the 1980s--from 14 percent in 1981 to 7 percent in 1988. In the 1990s, interest rates have continued to migrate gradually downward, as shown in Figure 5.

Savings. The savings rate did not rise in the 1980s, as supply-side advocates had predicted. In fact, in the 1980s the personal savings rate fell from 8 percent to 6.5 percent. [16]In the 1990s the average savings rate has fallen even further to an average of 4.9 percent [17]--although the rate of decline has slowed.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-261.html

****

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:26 Visit Dis's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#74 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Fez, The Cato Institute is a hell-hole of crap (=Supply side) economists, you are full of it Fez. In my school's Economics textbook it says that the "Misery Index" (I can't remember it's technical name) was at an all-time high under Reagan. So, one again, You have no evidence, YOU HAVE NOTHING!!!

It was definatly Reagan's fault with S&L. he gave in to the comercial bank lobby who were complaining to him, and of course he allways sided with Big Business and made S&Ls have to have higher interst rates on loans, screwing the poor people.


economics textbook?

some of us actually lived through that time.

And I wasn't some middle class person. I was poor (not due to reagon's policies- but other reasons). And what I did just say in my last post.

The early 80's were indeed horrible. But things improved many times over by the late 80's. Misery wasn't that bad in the U.S.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:26 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#75 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Listen Fez, I take my arguments from what I have seen in my life. Your opinions would be like mine too if you grew up in working class rural Minesota instead of upper-middle class Spain.


Actually I grew up in a **** hole apartment complex for much of my youth in Virginia.

I am not in Spain.

You have just been knocked senseless. No wonder... 17 years old.. when I was 17 I always thought I was right but you will learn.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:28
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#76 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Fez, you still always think you're right...

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:28
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#77 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by cinch
I gave him a 2, mostly because trickle-down economics doesn't work, and because he killed Keynesian theory in America.


That is what we are trying to get into Fezzie's head.

Fez, Sky and I are both probably smarter than you. As I said before, I don't trust Cato.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:30 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#78 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Odin

Fez, Sky and I are both probably smarter than you. As I said before, I don't trust Cato.


No you aren't. I am smarter than both of you, as you seem unwilling to introduce any evidence. Thank you very much.

So how does it feel losing a heated argument?

Sky, no I just back myself up now.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#79 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I happen to believe trickle-down economics work...

I also happen to believe that it may be possible to turn Fez into a productive member of OT ( oxymoron?), and that that's more important.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:32
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#80 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Fez


No you aren't. I am smarter than both of you, as you seem unwilling to introduce any evidence.


Your evidence is crap, CATO CAN SUCK IT!!!

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:32
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#81 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Odin, why is it crap? Because it supports his argument?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:33
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#82 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Fez
No you aren't. I am smarter than both of you, as you seem unwilling to introduce any evidence.


Fez, want to get in a real whose-smarter contest? No. I'd beat you cold. Trust me (this isn't from experience here, it's from experience IRL).

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:34 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#83 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/1...pin/opin.2.html

"A few numerical comparisons help make the point. Real GDP declined by one-half of 1 percent in 1980, President Carter's last year, and rose 3.9 percent in 1988, President Reagan's last year. The CPI rose 13.5 percent in 1980 and by 4.1 percent in '88. The prime rate dropped from 15 percent in 1980 to 9 percent in 1988. Real median family income rose from $34,200 in 1980 to $37,000 in 1988. The unemployment rate declined from 7.0 percent in 1980 to 5.4 percent in 1988.

On the other hand, the budget deficit rose from $74 billion in 1980 to $155 billion in 1988, while the trade deficit rose from $15 billion to $129 billion during the same period. And, contrary to widespread belief, the portion of the population below the poverty line was 13 percent in both years. One more set of numbers: Real national wealth rose from $11.9 trillion in 1980 to $14.2 trillion in 1988."

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:35 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#84 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
quote:
Originally posted by Fez
No you aren't. I am smarter than both of you, as you seem unwilling to introduce any evidence.


Fez, want to get in a real whose-smarter contest? No. I'd beat you cold. Trust me (this isn't from experience here, it's from experience IRL).


You won't. So tell me, why the superiority complex? I got one myself, but not as big as yours.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:40
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#85 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
Odin, why is it crap? Because it supports his argument?


No, My Libertarian Social Science teacher told me that Cato was crap when I did some research on Supply-side vs. Demand side. I had an A- on that project in which I concluded that Demand side was better in most cases unless the Demand was already excessevly high or Supply was excessevly low. I also pointed out that there is more chance of corporate corruption with Supply-side.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:43 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#86 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Your Social Science teacher doesn't have a clue what he/she is talking about. Cato has done years and years of work, and has many trained professionals who write up policy analysis.

Corporate corruption in Supply side? Yes.. and that is why there must be some law enforcement. In the Economist as of late, Singapore rated as the most economically free country in the world. They yet have the lowest level of corruption. The system is based on an pro-corporation tax code.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:44
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#87 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

Ok Fez.

I live in Fairfax County, VA (one of the most educated and smartest counties in the nation, and a major tech center, probably just behind Silicon Valley). I was not only GT (that crappy program), but I also made it into Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology, a governor's school that accepts 400 students a year. It also regularly wins national awards in science, math, and technology competitions. It is definately one of the top two or three high schools in the nation. And I'm regularly bored. I coast along with A's and B+'s. I am taking 3 AP courses next year - AP Calculus BC, AP Computer Science, and AP Biology. Junior year I have AP Physics, Advanced Optics I/II (post-AP courses), Quantum Physics (post-AP), Linear Algebra/Multivariable Calculus (post-AP I think, maybe AP), and AI/Computer Architecture (post-AP), plus AP French Language and possible AP History and English. Senior year I'm going to do a DOD mentorship (basically work at a research lab) and take AP Chemistry or maybe DNA Science I/II (post-AP). Satisfied?

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:46 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#88 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Fairfax county? Are you kidding? My parents have a townhome in Reston... I used to live there! I am not a science nor technology related person. My fields are politics, economics and international relations. I have taken four or five AP courses during my time in high school and about three or four IB courses. For 10-12th grades, I was educated in a private school that ranks far better than most every high school in the US. This private school costs $13,000 annually.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:47
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#89 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

All the private schools here are worse than TJ. Did you go to Gonzaga or PVI? They suck especially Gonzaga.

Sleep time.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:29
  Old Post 22-07-2003 09:51 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#90 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
All the private schools here are worse than TJ. Did you go to Gonzaga or PVI? They suck.


I spoke ambigiously. When I talked about that private school it was in Argentina.

We are all intelligent in our own fields, and I should of never have discriminated you for your age. You seem like a bright person. I have been thinking, can you accept the fact that I have strengths? I admit one thing here right now. I am terrible at math and science. The only math I do know is that of micro-economics but even the formulas I knew have faded from my memory. I am more acute with politics and international relations. Those are my areas of strength. That is all.

 
Pages (7): [ 1   2   3   4   5   6     >> ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:29.
Apolyton Time is 00:29.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0727 seconds (91.57% PHP - 8.43% MySQL) with 34 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net