23-07-2003 08:57									#121
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You're not really that bright there either, Fezzie...

Shut up... yes I am.. far brighter than you lot.

	23-07-2003 09:02									#122
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Ned, I don't think so.


Fez, here is some advice, ACT inteligent. Maybe you wouldn't be teased so much.

	23-07-2003 09:03									#123
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Acting intelligent is good but a bit bland.. ought to act a bit colorful and humorous. Perhaps that is your problem?

	23-07-2003 09:07									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Ned, I don't think so. Fez, here is some advice, ACT inteligent. Maybe you wouldn't be teased so much.

Odin, I suspect you are not old enough to remember the 70's. What did you learn about it in school?

	23-07-2003 09:09									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ned For those who believe in America, Ronald Reagan was a great president. Fot those who view America as the great evil, Ronald Reagan was a bad president because he restored American power and prestige.

For those of us who love America, Reagan was a terrible president. He began this horrible rollback of FDR's New Deal. You don't get any more American than FDR. Instead we end up with this regulation-free neolibertarian ideology. Yeah, insulate the corporations from the will of the people. Gee, and I though democracy was American.

Why, Ned, do you hate America so?

quote: For those who remember the seventies, America was shaken to its foundation by the humiliation of Vietnam, by the betrayal and political corruption of a president, by the stupidity of his successor, and by a radical leftist anti-American president who blamed the American people for the failures of his presidency.

So after Reagan blew the **** our of Grenada we all felt so much better! Tell us another one.

quote: America's honor, power and prestige were in severe decline. Its economy was a shambles due to wage price controls begun under Richard Nixon and continued with a vengeance with respect to oil and gas prices by an excessively anti-American Jimmy Carter. Communism was advancing across the globe and the Soviets were in Afghanistan. The Ayatollah Khomeini held our hostages. A former ally had become an enemy.

The Soviets were living on borrowed time due to their own incompetence. Good grief, Reagan merely benefitted from timing.

Jimmy Carter was not anti-American . What? Believing in and promoting human rights and democracy is anti-American? Those sound American to me. But supporting Pinchet and Galtieri (well, at least when the British weren't involved :lol like Reagan was American? Chilean torturers hooking up car batteries to the testicles of left wing dissidents is American?

Khomeini!? Are you ****ing serious? Decades of CIA support of the Shah (and his policy of electrodes to nuts) made Iran our enemy.

quote: Into this stepped Ronald Reagan who changed everything.

Funny you say that.

quote: He fixed the economy by ending price controls and by reducing taxes. He invested in the military and stood up to the Soviet Union as no prior president had.

Right. Tell that to Kennedy - who faced off against the Soviets when they were still at the height of their power.

More like Reagan ruined the economy with deficits and overspending on military deterence. You know what I remember from the eighties? Japan taking over the market in chips and cars. Thanks Ron!

quote: By the end of his presidency, the USSR was in total collapse and the Berlin Wall was about to fall. Ronald Reagan single-handedly rescued the United States from the chaos of the seventies and rescued the world from Communism.

Have another hit off the crack pipe! The Soviets were done by the late 70s. Reagan magnified their actual threat.

quote: History will view Ronald Reagan as at least a critical president in the history United States and probably one of its greatest presidents due to his accomplishments.

Critical yes. Critical to the emergence of neoliberal dogma. Great?

	23-07-2003 09:15									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Odin, I suspect you are not old enough to remember the 70's. What did you learn about it in school?

Kent State, My Lai Massacre, Watergate, OPEC shutting off the oil, Republicans blaming Carter for things that were not under his control, the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism, Stagflation. My mom said life was better under Carter than Reagan for working people even though the economy wasn't doing so well.

	23-07-2003 09:17									#127
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Carter was a weak president.

quote: My mom said life was better under Carter than Reagan for working people even though the economy wasn't doing so well.

That's false and I proved that wrong. Your mother is mistaken or talking about herself. Reagan was better for all. My source proved it. My family knows about it, as my uncle was in the working class in the late 70s then and in the mid 80s he changed jobs to something way better.

	23-07-2003 09:19									#128
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The Templar, another in the long line of recently educated Americans who do not understand the contrast between the 70's and the 80's. The 70's were a period of sharp decline in American self confidence and in its world-wide standing. The Soviets invaded Afghanistan with impunity. The Aytollah threw out the democratic successor to the Shah without invoking any US response. Oil price controls keep prices up and exploration down while shortages dogged the land. Inflation had gone out of control while the president blamed the American people for its black mood.

Get real. Ronald Reagan saved America just as much as Aurelian once saved Rome.

	23-07-2003 09:31									#129
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar He began this horrible rollback of FDR's New Deal.

You speak as if that was a bad thing.

	23-07-2003 09:32									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Kent State, My Lai Massacre, Watergate, OPEC shutting off the oil, Republicans blaming Carter for things that were not under his control, the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism, Stagflation. My mom said life was better under Carter than Reagan for working people even though the economy wasn't doing so well.

Well, Odin, the 70's were a nightmare for America, just as were the late 60's in a way. The 70's began well when Nixon began withdrawing our troops from Vietnam. But he also cut way back on military spending elsewhere. This caused a "Aerospace" depression as hundreds of thousand of skilled workers lost their jobs. Then he hit us with wage-price controls that kicked off the very inflation that he was trying to prevent.

Then came Watergate, the stupidity that was Gerald Ford, and finally the truly anti-American Jimmy Carter who blamed every failure on corporate American or on the American people and who allowed American foreign policy to slide into weakness and humiliation.

I agree that Reagan was strongly anti-union. Undoubtedly, this caused the decline in union power in the US. However, an even greater cause was the rise of Japan who were able to produce more and better for less money. American corporations responded by moving union jobs offshore.

America could have kept those jobs had we reduced corporate taxes and reduced or subsidized the cost of compliance with environmental regulations. However. every attempt to reduce costs for US corporations was resisted and defeated by a highly Democrat Congress who purportedly were acting on behalf of the working man, but who were really working against their interests.

	23-07-2003 09:32									#131
	DD Got spare money?

Too bad your country had FDR in the 30s and mine had Mackenzie King and Bennett.

We'd actually have appreciated what FDR did for you...

	23-07-2003 09:36									#132
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse We'd actually have appreciated what FDR did for you...

You enjoy PM's that openly violate your Constitution.

	23-07-2003 09:37									#133
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Doesn't the Canadian constitution allow the PM to do whatever he wants anyway?

	23-07-2003 17:00									#134
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar For those of us who love America, Reagan was a terrible Yeah, insulate the corporations from the will of the people. Gee, and I though democracy was American.

You'd rather let "the will of the people" run corporations?

	23-07-2003 20:16									#135
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You speak as if that was a bad thing.

I do believe you would disagree with my stand on universal healthcare as well.

New Deal, lets see. You live in Mississippi, a poor state. I live in New York, a rich state. In terms of federal tax dollars, we pay more than we get back in programs. You get more back in programs than you pay in. This started with the New Deal. Frankly, I am quite happy to assure that, on my dime, rural Mississippi (i.e. the whole state), starting in the 30s, was the beneficiary of federal spending that spread electrification and indoor plumbing. Later, this assured universal telephone service. I'd prefer you build mass transit instead of more freeways - but, ok, I can understand how you don't want dirt roads. The New Deal is what maked Mississippi a tolerable place to live.

What gets me is that southerners are always the first ones to complain about taxes and Big Gubbament. Of course, this goes against the fact that government programs have largely built the south's infrastructure and that the South largely benefits from our federal progressive tax structure.

Saras

The people like to breath clean air, drink clean water, and have cancer free kids. I would even go so far as to say that people value these things over having a job. Go ahead ask anyone whether they would trade their kid's health for a better job.

From the 30s on, there was a strong puysh for greater government regulation in terms of on-the-job safety, and later for the health of the environment. Industry ain't going to stop polluting on its own (this is essentially the colective action problem - no one is going to pay the cost of cleaning up unless everyone is forced to do likewise).

So yeah, I want the will of the people regulating job safety and environmental impacts.

Ned

You miss my point, the Ayatollah's popularity was a direct consequence of the Shah. We supported the Shah, so the people of Iran didn't much like us either. We created the Ayatollah.

Oh, and Carter launched a military operation to save the hostages. The military promptly ****ed it up. What did Reagan do? Oh yeah, he cut a deal - what a toughie. You see Carter knew when to be tough and when to negotiate.

Also, Japan was heavily unionized and was kicking our asses.

Now I will admit that Reagan did alot to inspire confidence. Then again, i think anyone who wasn't Carter or Ford could have done that job.

	23-07-2003 20:31									#136
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quote: You speak as if that was a bad thing.

It is if you are anyone BUT a super-rich corporation/individual.

	23-07-2003 20:32									#137
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DD is neither.

	23-07-2003 20:39									#138
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quote: Saras The people like to breath clean air, drink clean water, and have cancer free kids. I would even go so far as to say that people value these things over having a job. Go ahead ask anyone whether they would trade their kid's health for a better job. From the 30s on, there was a strong puysh for greater government regulation in terms of on-the-job safety, and later for the health of the environment. Industry ain't going to stop polluting on its own (this is essentially the colective action problem - no one is going to pay the cost of cleaning up unless everyone is forced to do likewise). So yeah, I want the will of the people regulating job safety and environmental impacts.

On the job safety can be agreed via negotiations, by either individual or union, no need for the Govt. to enforce.

Pollution, OTOH, may be regulated, but is best (theoretically) addressed via trading pollution permits, i.e., internalizing the pollution externality. I admit there are implementation issues, but that's another topic.

	23-07-2003 21:28									#139
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quote: DD is neither.

I can't comment on DD since I don't know him personally, but there are a great many people who mistakenly think the Republican party represents their interests.

	23-07-2003 21:58									#140
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Funny how people who claim to speak for the 'peoples interest' believe they are all 'mistaken' when they choose another party .

	23-07-2003 22:04									#141
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quote: Funny how people who claim to speak for the 'peoples interest' believe they are all 'mistaken' when they choose another party

If you are refering to me, you're making the mistake of assuming I'm a Democrat. I have no party affiliation. I vote for the person that will do the least amount of damage.

I suspect your support of Reagan's policies has more to do with your own families' success during that period... and that's fine. Most people don't think outside the box, they look at their own world and make generalized conclusions, extrapolating their experiences to the rest of the country. My family had success during the 80's, but when I form opinions on what policies work and what don't, I look at the collective state of things for ALL Americans. There are outliers that will always contradict conclusions that encompass large groups. It's important to look at ALL the evidence, not just your own experiences.

edit: oh yeah, are you going to dispute the evidence I presented? or shall I claim victory once again?

	23-07-2003 22:06									#142
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2. Iran-Contra cannot be forgiven. Where was the impeachment there? I guess getting a hummer in the oval office is worse than letting a lt. colonel create foreign policy by selling arms to the country that just kidnapped US citizens, and giving the money to those wonderful chaps in Nicaragua!

	23-07-2003 22:11									#143
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You enjoy PM's that openly violate your Constitution.

It's not a violation till the SC says it's one.

quote: Doesn't the Canadian constitution allow the PM to do whatever he wants anyway?

Yes, but AFAIK no federal government has ever invoked the notwithstanding clause.

The only ones to do so till now have been Quebec wrt language laws and Saskatchewan wrt labour laws.

	23-07-2003 22:12									#144
	Inflate your Upload Space

Alberta might do so wrt same-sex marriage.

	23-07-2003 22:12									#145
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Wow, it's interesting DD is complaining about a Canadian PM violating the Constitution... I wonder if he feels that same about BOOOSH..

	23-07-2003 22:14									#146
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Whoosh.

You missed that one entirely, didn't you...

He was complaining that FDR violated your Constitution in response to my assertion that FDR was an enourmous positive influence on your recovery from the Depression.

	23-07-2003 22:16									#147
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quote: Whoosh. You missed that one entirely, didn't you... He was complaining that FDR violated your Constitution in response to my assertion that FDR was an enourmous positive influence on your recovery from the Depression.

nah, I didn't bother to read the earlier posts between you two...

	23-07-2003 22:16									#148
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quote: I suspect your support of Reagan's policies has more to do with your own families' success during that period

No it has to do with economic facts of GDP growth, inflation rates, unemployment, and median incomes. I look at the facts and evidence and see how they affect the country as a whole.

You just think Reagan was evil because the rich and middle class benefited more than the poor .

quote: oh yeah, are you going to dispute the evidence I presented? or shall I claim victory once again?

You can claim victory all you want, it doesn't matter when you are arguing from a position of defeat .

Which 'evidence', btw? You've provided little, if any, in this thread. And Fez has pretty much dug up some very good stats to disprove most of your outlandish statements.

quote: If you are refering to me, you're making the mistake of assuming I'm a Democrat. I have no party affiliation. I vote for the person that will do the least amount of damage.

It doesn't matter if you are a Democrat or not. It applies most of all to you .

	23-07-2003 22:22									#149
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quote: You just think Reagan was evil because the rich and middle class benefited more than the poor

no... because the super rich benefitted a lot... the middle class stayed the same, and the poor got worse... and the gap between all three grew enormously.

quote: And Fez has pretty much dug up some very good stats to disprove most of your outlandish statements.

And now I know you are on drugs. Let's see... official government documents, info from non-partisan credible economic organizations... or info from right-wing think-tanks...

Imran, if you want to continue this debate... provide something. It's hard to argue with someone when one person (me) provides tons of information... and another (you) provides nothing, and uses Fez as a source.

	23-07-2003 22:31									#150
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You keep saying you provided tons of information, but I've been through every page of this discussion, and there is hardly anything there... except mostly opinion.

Why shouldn't I point to Fez's links? I'd have linked to them myself. The Cato Institute is a well respected think-tank, while liberal like to disparage because it's stats are correct (taken from government sources) and back right wing policies . Lefties have to try to attack the source, since the numbers go against them.

For example, REAL family income rose in ALL Quintiles during the 1980s.

The 'poor got worse' argument is a total bunch of BS. Yes the gap between poor and rich rose, but because the rich benefited greatly, and the poor not so much, but they STILL benefited.